Elms & the Livestock Farmer

BrianV

Member
Livestock Farmer
Isn't it time that DEFRA owned up & admitted that they see arable farmers as the spawn of the Devil with their ploughs, heavy machinery & chemical soaked soils where as livestock & mixed farmers with their lovely pastures, meadows, flowers & hedges have surely been delivered from the loins of God, of course the only downside for Defra is in their opinion those bloody livestock farmers will annoyingly insist on keeping those horrible livestock.
Still Defra can solve this problem by skewing any new subsidies in favour of those arable farmers to the detriment of those animal hating livestock farmers, with arable farmers mini till & insect killing insecticides they will soon clean up our world, after all who wants dung beatles & creepy crawly insects that those horrible covid inducing bats live on & those disgusting wormy things that live in farmyard manures.
It might be the sceptic in me but I can't help feeling that many in Defra including the ever patient Janet just might be lentil scoffing graziers who would happily see the back of us livestock producers & would scream in disgust if faced with a traditional Sunday roast, maybe those arable guys are not seen in Defra's eyes as the spawn of the devil after all & perhaps we should all turn out our old ploughs to join in with the jamboree.
 
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BrianV

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yes, but what does he want ?
What he wants is for Defra to appreciate the contribution to the environment that livestock farmers make, they use very few if any chemicals on their land, contrast that with the arable & vegetable sectors, livestock producers have the pastures, hedges, trees etc that Defra try to pretend they want.
All we seem to hear from Defra & the government is the terrible pollution livestock producers are laughingly supposed to produce & as yet the majority of announcements regarding ELMS & farmings future seems skewed to what arable farmers need not what our livestock producers need!
 

delilah

Member
What he wants is for Defra to appreciate the contribution to the environment that livestock farmers make, they use very few if any chemicals on their land, contrast that with the arable & vegetable sectors, livestock producers have the pastures, hedges, trees etc that Defra try to pretend they want.
All we seem to hear from Defra & the government is the terrible pollution livestock producers are laughingly supposed to produce & as yet the majority of announcements regarding ELMS & farmings future seems skewed to what arable farmers need not what our livestock producers need!

Yes, but if @Janet Hughes Defra is to help you, then you need to be a bit more specific than that. What do you want ?
 

BrianV

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yes, but if @Janet Hughes Defra is to help you, then you need to be a bit more specific than that. What do you want ?
As I have mentioned before, if we are going to make sure younger mainly livestock farming families are going to survive there needs to be a base land based payment the same or similar to SFP as smaller farms especially in the hills will never be able to make up the loss in income when the current SFP comes to an end.
It's all very well having these possibly well intentioned ELMS schemes but farmers with smaller acreages will not find it worth their while for the small amount involved when compared with the hassle in taking part!
 

delilah

Member
As I have mentioned before, if we are going to make sure younger mainly livestock farming families are going to survive there needs to be a base land based payment the same or similar to SFP as smaller farms especially in the hills will never be able to make up the loss in income when the current SFP comes to an end.
It's all very well having these possibly well intentioned ELMS schemes but farmers with smaller acreages will not find it worth their while for the small amount involved when compared with the hassle in taking part!

You need to put some numbers on it.
It can't just be 'keep the SFP going'. @Janet Hughes Defra has to strike a balance with all of this. It needs to be simple enough for farmers, but radical enough for the politicians. 'Keep the SFP' ticks the first box, but not the second.
 

BrianV

Member
Livestock Farmer
You need to put some numbers on it.
It can't just be 'keep the SFP going'. @Janet Hughes Defra has to strike a balance with all of this. It needs to be simple enough for farmers, but radical enough for the politicians. 'Keep the SFP' ticks the first box, but not the second.
Why cannot a base of say 100 hectares of single farm payment be kept going with ELMS schemes on top of this, as they say "where there's a will there's a way" small mainly livestock farmers do every bit of good for the environment as massive arable estates often with far more hedges to look after, don't get me started on this bulls**t can only trim the hedge every few years rubbish.
To say you cannot just keep SFP going is just a load of tosh as the scheme can be exactly as DEFRA wants it to be!
This new scheme far from being simplified & easy to manage is turning out to be the most complicated time & labour consuming farce open to endless amendments & abuses that Defra have ever come up with & if anybody thinks this will roll out smoothy over the next few years they are surely living in cloud cuckoo land!
 

delilah

Member
Why cannot a base of say 100 hectares of single farm payment be kept going with ELMS schemes on top of this

I don't know. @Janet Hughes Defra would need to answer that one.

To say you cannot just keep SFP going is just a load of tosh as the scheme can be exactly as DEFRA wants it to be!

You may be correct. I am only going on the fact that when I suggested on here that ELMS needs, for political reasons, to be seen as a radical departure from the SFP, it earned a 'likey' from Janet.
 

7610 super q

Member
Arable Farmer
But the thing is, arable farmers can be classified into 2 very different groups.

(1) Those that hold 4000 years of proper farming dear to their hearts, drawing on a wealth of post war ADAS knowledge, good agronomic practice, tried and tested methods, sound business principles, and a love of traditional workmanship.

(2) No-till numpties.

:ROFLMAO: Just kidding.........:unsure:
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
But the thing is, arable farmers can be classified into 2 very different groups.

(1) Those that hold 4000 years of proper farming dear to their hearts, drawing on a wealth of post war ADAS knowledge, good agronomic practice, tried and tested methods, sound business principles, and a love of traditional workmanship.

(2) No-till numpties.

:ROFLMAO: Just kidding.........:unsure:

The trouble is the ones in group 2 seem to be the only ones that are formulating the new scheme.
 
If a clear analysis is made of the environmental schemes since the 1990's it is very obvious that the lions share of money has always gone to the tired grade 3 arable land.

Those livestock farmers who have always done their best for the environment whether intentionally or accidentally have always received less compensation for the work they do.
You only have to look at SSSI's which are mostly managed by using livestock, many of these were fist designated in the 1980's and received payments based on income foregone.

That principal over the last three decades has disappeared and so have the level of payments to those farmers.
The arable farmers who have grown continuous cereals on poor land get paid to plant "beneficial" crops to try to restore some organic matter. Some of these schemes where herbal leys are planted and paid for generously cannot even be grazed by livestock!!

I doubt this will change as most livestock farmers are too nice and like to look after the environment anyway.
 

devonbeef

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon UK
Isn't it time that DEFRA owned up & admitted that they see arable farmers as the spawn of the Devil with their ploughs, heavy machinery & chemical soaked soils where as livestock & mixed farmers with their lovely pastures, meadows, flowers & hedges have surely been delivered from the loins of God, of course the only downside for Defra is in their opinion those bloody livestock farmers will annoyingly insist on keeping those horrible livestock.
Still Defra can solve this problem by skewing any new subsidies in favour of those arable farmers to the detriment of those animal hating livestock farmers, with arable farmers mini till & insect killing insecticides they will soon clean up our world, after all who wants dung beatles & creepy crawly insects that those horrible covid inducing bats live on & those disgusting wormy things that live in farmyard manures.
It might be the sceptic in me but I can't help feeling that many in Defra including the ever patient Janet just might be lentil scoffing graziers who would happily see the back of us livestock producers & would scream in disgust if faced with a traditional Sunday roast, maybe those arable guys are not seen in Defra's eyes as the spawn of the devil after all & perhaps we should all turn out our old ploughs to join in with the jamboree
The other thing i would like to add is a 150/200 acre typical livestock farm in my area can not afford to have land out off production or lesson its earning ability by be involved in measures to let the land become less productive.The hedges and a few rough steep corners yes the rest no.Quite simply on a small farm you have to keep the output up to make a living from it.There is no slack, i need x number of cattle reared and finished every single year to pay the bills, you cant run on half measures unless payment figures make up the difference. Most people do not have time to play around sorting out extra hurdles to jump as will required by all these new schemes, We are spending all our time looking after stock to make sure losses are kept to a minimum, and keeping on top of the vast number of different aspects which have to be carried out when running a business on extremely slim margins.
 

delilah

Member
I doubt this will change as most livestock farmers are too nice and like to look after the environment anyway.

I am guessing that the message in the OP is that without some form of 'basic payment', those livestock farmers will no longer be in the position of being able to look after the environment. Which brings me back to my question; what do you want ?
 

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Five nature-recovery projects spanning 100,000ha launched

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Written by Michelle Martin from Agriland

Image-source-Savills-field-640x360.jpg
Five nature-recovery projects spanning nearly 100,000ha across the West Midlands, Cambridgeshire, the Peak District, Norfolk and Somerset have been announced by the government and Natural England today (Thursday, May 26).

This is the equivalent in size to all 219 current National Reserves.

The aim of the projects is to deliver nature recovery at a landscape scale, helping to tackle biodiversity loss, climate change and improve public health and well-being.

All five projects will make a significant contribution towards the national delivery of the international commitment to protect at least 30% of land and...
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