End of the Road for Small Livestock Farms?

[Bossfarmer]

rubbish , small farmer has had a bloody bad time under subsidy they are all about gone anyway ! Subs have allowed the big to get massive , the removal will give the big boys a hard time now , most of them will have their entire workforce wages out of subs alone.

its allowed small guys to stay in the game though, they havent needed to get bigger as theyve had the cheque each december, now without that they will have to get bigger or get out, yes many smaller farmers have given up the last 30 years but they havent all been financially forced out many have kids that arent interested or no kids at all

 

[the-mad-welder]

Sorry to read that. I'm hoping to hold in myself and though not always economic I'm still spending where I can to make my single handed farming life easier (watch this space with a little project @the-mad-welder is getting saddled with)

This is the progress so far with it!!

 

[Tarw Coch]

its allowed small guys to stay in the game though, they havent needed to get bigger as theyve had the cheque each december, now without that they will have to get bigger or get out, yes many smaller farmers have given up the last 30 years but they havent all been financially forced out many have kids that arent interested or no kids at all

It’s also given some quite hefty payouts to the larger farms, which should have economies of scale and with the extra land they have ought to be able to make a decent go of the job, the bigger you are the more you get, is that right?

 

[teslacoils]

For all the public & politician talk of supporting small family farms, the crack is that 300ac arable is little more than a weekend / evening hobby job. Yeah, I could bolt on some hobby stock too, but then I'd have zero time and zero money. Zero money is ok. Zero time is ok. But zero both is crappy.

Markets are shutting. H&s for working with cattle if you have staff a bloody disaster in the waiting. Government doesn't want plastic wrap; manure etc. BBC doesn't want meat.

That's the situation.

 

[delilah]

So I have had 100 acres down to a grass (a woody rhizomatous C4 grass species) since 2008 which has had no sprays or ferts for the past 10 years. Can this benefit from ELMS ?

Apologies for being a bit thick, but how do you get involved in the ELMS co-design process? @delilah

Anyone who wants to turn their thoughts expressed on this thread into input to defra, email them and ask to be included in the co-design process.

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...design-submissions.339171/page-3#post-7604164

 

[Bill dog]

For all the public & politician talk of supporting small family farms, the crack is that 300ac arable is little more than a weekend / evening hobby job. Yeah, I could bolt on some hobby stock too, but then I'd have zero time and zero money. Zero money is ok. Zero time is ok. But zero both is crappy.

Markets are shutting. H&s for working with cattle if you have staff a bloody disaster in the waiting. Government doesn't want plastic wrap; manure etc. BBC doesn't want meat.

That's the situation.

Well said! I wish I could disagree with you , but I can’t!
It’s too windy to spray any crops, so I’m off to drench some lambs, and crutch the ewes. What was that about zero time ?

 

[teslacoils]

Don't get me wrong I'd love to make it work. But you've got a business environment which sees houses go up ten percent in a year for zero effort, Vs kitting up for stock where the govt could change the rules on density, muck storage etc on a whim.

Dads aim was to get 200ac paid for so my brother and I could provide for a family from 100ac tenanted each, and he could retire on the rent.

Nearby the folk going in to cattle are retired teachers etc doing it for a bit if fun with their pension income. Go figure it out. I've huge respect for the market garden, the direct sales etc. But my farm investment is to make stuff easier so I can do the same work in less time - grain can go off farm and shedsbysed for other things.

Minimum wage for two adults is c£40k a year. If the Mrs is supported on the farm, and if you include the value of the house, can a small stock farm draw that out. Because otherwise you're being passed by by zero hours, zero skilled Amazon box Packers (£11/hr) or the chap who holds the roadwork stop go sign (£15/hr lincs county council).

 

[delilah]

If your a high level man/woman in defra what’s not to like? Maybe next time they are on here for their webinar things they could be questioned?

There is an ELMS 'ask me anything' session on here in the pipeline, not sure when. @Clive .

 

[andybk]

Or you could look at it from the point of view of the tax payer. Why subsidies a livestyle choice of farming 50 acres, when clearly in this day and age it isn't a business that can make a profit !

The Miners had the same reality check in the 1980's.

Harsh but true unfortunately.

Whilst i agree with your post, RPA will pay loads for the arable / monocrop dairy to put in species rich swards , yet there are many such mature pastures already there , i mowed a 7ac piece yesterday , never had much fert other than p and k and lime , there was everything there from red / white clover , vetch , sheep parsley , speedwell , god knows how many other species , has carefully spot sprayed nettle/ thistle over the years , when its re let and old man retires , next man in will plaster it in slurry and cut it two or three times . From a financial point of view and to obtain what they are after in ELMs better look after the old codger grazing a few sheep (understocked) leave a few corners for birds to nest (he isnt doing it for the income really ) , than spend on the modern farmer who will rip anything new out as soon as better paying option comes along .

 

[kfpben]

Don't get me wrong I'd love to make it work. But you've got a business environment which sees houses go up ten percent in a year for zero effort, Vs kitting up for stock where the govt could change the rules on density, muck storage etc on a whim.

Dads aim was to get 200ac paid for so my brother and I could provide for a family from 100ac tenanted each, and he could retire on the rent.

Nearby the folk going in to cattle are retired teachers etc doing it for a bit if fun with their pension income. Go figure it out. I've huge respect for the market garden, the direct sales etc. But my farm investment is to make stuff easier so I can do the same work in less time - grain can go off farm and shedsbysed for other things.

Minimum wage for two adults is c£40k a year. If the Mrs is supported on the farm, and if you include the value of the house, can a small stock farm draw that out. Because otherwise you're being passed by by zero hours, zero skilled Amazon box Packers (£11/hr) or the chap who holds the roadwork stop go sign (£15/hr lincs county council).

Would you realistically want to be an Amazon box packer or be the guy who holds the stop/go sign?
I’ve had a taste of corporate life and it’s soulless bulls**t. Farming would have to get bloody awful for me to consider going back to that type of scene.
A huge number of people round here work in the city with the aim to live in the country with a bit of land and a few animals. Luckily I can do that now, and avoid decades working in an airless box in Canary Wharf.

 

[Cowabunga]

It ticks every box for landscape and low input agriculture but what can they do to still receive sufficient payments to make it work?
I am sure this is not an isolated situation and taking the money from the retirement scheme will not be possible. These small farms have historically been an important part of the supply chain.

They have not really been significant to the supply chain where around 20% of all registered farmers supply 80% of the food.
Fact is that it hasn't been a viable holding for many years and is unlikely to be so any time in the future either. Either they keep subsidising it from their non-farm income, which makes no sense whatsoever, or they sell their stock altogether, cut the numbers down to less than half to eliminate costs, or change enterprises to something that might potentially make some money rather than losing it. A tourism site perhaps?
The other alternative may be to sell up the smallholding and move to a nice retirement bungalow somewhere for less money, thus releasing a shedload of cash to keep them in their twilight years.

 

[Hilly]

its allowed small guys to stay in the game though, they havent needed to get bigger as theyve had the cheque each december, now without that they will have to get bigger or get out, yes many smaller farmers have given up the last 30 years but they havent all been financially forced out many have kids that arent interested or no kids at all

Has it hell they are mostly finished or diversified .

 

[Raider112]

Karma ?
According to opinion polls the Brexit vote was split pretty evenly amongst farmers, it’s certainly not as if they all voted for, much like the rest of the country.
However a majority of around about 1.7 million voted for Brexit so even if every single farmer had voted remain Brexit would still have happened

That last sentence should have been automatically added every ten comments to all the Brexit threads over the last 5 years on here.

 

[puppet]

They have not really been significant to the supply chain where around 20% of all registered farmers supply 80% of the food.

I guess you could say that about corner or village shops too. Why pay more for items you could buy in a supermarket but we expect the corner shop to open at 6am to get some fags, rolls and the papers and still be open at 8pm as we need a tin of beans.
Small farms keep communities together and provide people to volunteer. Large farms give us food but do 10 Lithuanians in mobile homes contribute anything to local life?
I would like to see people moving into smaller farms with their main income from elsewhere such as via internet-based work. Covid has opened up a lot of eyes. That would bring well paid jobs into low income rural areas and still provide work for all the ancillary occupations -trades, fencers, etc.

As long as they don't complain about sheep muck and try to improve their access roads

 

[teslacoils]

Would you realistically want to be an Amazon box packer or be the guy who holds the stop/go sign?
I’ve had a taste of corporate life and it’s soulless bullpoo. Farming would have to get bloody awful for me to consider going back to that type of scene.
A huge number of people round here work in the city with the aim to live in the country with a bit of land and a few animals. Luckily I can do that now, and avoid decades working in an airless box in Canary Wharf.

There's a lot to be said for 35 hours a week on the stop/go, paid holiday, cheque from employer. Then go spend what's left on a few hobby sucklers.

I don't really like the idea that my "job" is valued so little by society that 60 hours a week to make food still left me poorer than the dole.

It's the distinction between job and hobby. Something that ultimately costs money, yet provides fun, is not a job. It's a hobby. Sucklers run by 60+ year old farmers that provides a lifestyle and no real profit is not a job. It's a retirement hobby.

Future for smaller UK farms is leisure, tourism, let units for crafts and storage, and elms.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

To those of us who give these matters serious consideration how does a reduction in cow numbers square up to a massive increase in permanent pasture ?

Maybe the "high level man/woman in defra" has some other use for PP than putting it through a ruminant animal ?

Or maybe, they just have no idea at all that grassland has to be "put through a ruminant", I know that comment sounds unbelievable but it could well be true! In fact that would not surprise me at all.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Or maybe, they just have no idea at all that grassland has to be "put through a ruminant", I know that comment sounds unbelievable but it could well be true! In fact that would not surprise me at all.

I have just had the Vet here for a TB cymorth visit, to discuss where the last TB breakdown could have come from and how to reduce the chance of more TB breakdowns in the future. So, one part of government (the part that believes in science) has been telling me to badger proof buildings, ideally water troughs too, certainly any creep feed etc because badgers act as a reservoir for TB (as well as cattle to cattle/cattle movements), while, at the same time I get the impression that other parts of government are as a minimum colluding in the idea that badgers are nothing to do with TB!!!!

 

[Bossfarmer]

It’s also given some quite hefty payouts to the larger farms, which should have economies of scale and with the extra land they have ought to be able to make a decent go of the job, the bigger you are the more you get, is that right?

everyone gets the same per acre, forget what the smaller guys bigger neighbour is getting he still gets the money and allows him to stay in farming if he wishes to do so

 

[Bossfarmer]

Has it hell they are mostly finished or diversified .

through choice, a guy i know has a 200 acre farm he gets 18k an acre sub and 18k a year for grazing lets, easy living, take away that sub though and hell need to get a job

 

[Tarw Coch]

everyone gets the same per acre, forget what the smaller guys bigger neighbour is getting he still gets the money and allows him to stay in farming if he wishes to do so

But surely if bigger is better and more efficient the big guys don’t have the same need