End of the Road for Small Livestock Farms?

[Top Tip.]

No its not. Consistent management of ground over larger averages has been proven to be more successful. If small farms work together to achieve joint goals, then it is indeed the same.

For example, if you manage to get a breeding covey of grey partridge (just using my original example) on 50 acres, they are more likely to stray off or be pushed off your ground and potentially shot, than if you ave them on 5000 acres.

Im not slagging small farms off, but any form of land management or environmental management is more successful and has greater impact when done at scale. Also financially, it is often more viable on larger units.

That’s not been my experience,large estates are run in such a way that maximises profit at the expense of everything else. Your smaller units will have far more biodiversity simply because the farmer knows his ground much better and will have a diverse rotation to suit rather than the mono culture in the drive for profit in the large estate.

 

[glasshouse]

Much more chance of properly paid employment and promotion on large units as well.

10 flocks of 800 ewes will have 10 shepherds.

1 flock of 8,000 ewes maybe have 4 shepherds, an assistant manager and a manager.

Depends if u want to be employed
I have never been employed, apart from student and travelling jobs

 

[glasshouse]

That’s not been my experience,large estates are run in such a way that maximises profit at the expense of everything else. Your smaller units will have far more biodiversity simply because the farmer knows his ground much better and will have a diverse rotation to suit rather than the mono culture in the drive for profit in the large estate.

Exactly right

 

[livestock 1]

Much more chance of properly paid employment and promotion on large units as well.

10 flocks of 800 ewes will have 10 shepherds.

1 flock of 8,000 ewes maybe have 4 shepherds, an assistant manager and a manager.

That’s because the fourth shepherd will be a better manager than manager and the assistant manager

 

[Top Tip.]

Much more chance of properly paid employment and promotion on large units as well.

10 flocks of 800 ewes will have 10 shepherds.

1 flock of 8,000 ewes maybe have 4 shepherds, an assistant manager and a manager.

So you make four folk unemployed,what’s the sense in that ? You want more people employed in agriculture not less.

 

[glasshouse]

A flock of sheep fed outside keep thousands of small birds alive in winter, a 500 ac block of wheat does nothing

 

[jendan]

Much more chance of properly paid employment and promotion on large units as well.

10 flocks of 800 ewes will have 10 shepherds.

1 flock of 8,000 ewes maybe have 4 shepherds, an assistant manager and a manager.

You have just contradicted yourself ?

 

[Courier]

Marshalls went bust, so did grampian

Thorne Poultry part of Grampian, then Vion, then became part of 2 Sisters, now Iqbal Poultry....and so it goes on...

 

[unlacedgecko]

You have just contradicted yourself ?

No I haven't. In example 1 the shepherd is in a dead end job, and most likely under paid. Example 2 means there's an opportunity for promotion within the organization.

Scale it up further, and there's even more opportunity. Also, the lower number of people employed increases the amount of pay each could receive.

 

[digger64]

so thats worse now he doesnt have any way to pay his rent or the cattle

No the costs level will become related to the enterprise concerned rather than someone elses personal aims and ability to pay

 

[unlacedgecko]

Depends if u want to be employed
I have never been employed, apart from student and travelling jobs

I have no desire to be employed. But if I'm forced into it, example 2 would be much better than example 1.

 

[toquark]

The chip on your shoulder hasn’t got any smaller

to be fair I’m with @glasshouse on this one. Support should be targeted to maintain people on the land. A graduated approach based on area is the simplest and fairest route to that. There’s no sense in subsidising empires whilst small producers that everybody claims to want are allowed to go to the wall.

 

[glasshouse]

to be fair I’m with @glasshouse on this one. Support should be targeted to maintain people on the land. A graduated approach based on area is the simplest and fairest route to that. There’s no sense in subsidising empires whilst small producers that everybody claims to want are allowed to go to the wall.

Careful, i am not sharing my chip with you!!

 

[jendan]

No I haven't. In example 1 the shepherd is in a dead end job, and most likely under paid. Example 2 means there's an opportunity for promotion within the organization.

Scale it up further, and there's even more opportunity. Also, the lower number of people employed increases the amount of pay each could receive.

You have replaced 8 shepherds with 4. The assistant and general manager will be be managing the whole estate,not just the sheep.

 

[CopperBeech]

That’s not been my experience,large estates are run in such a way that maximises profit at the expense of everything else. Your smaller units will have far more biodiversity simply because the farmer knows his ground much better and will have a diverse rotation to suit rather than the mono culture in the drive for profit in the large estate.

I think we are arguing two different things mate.

I am saying that if someone makes a commitment to farm in harmony with nature across 15,000 acres or whatever, they are able to have a greater impact than someone with 50.

I spend quite a lot of time on some big estates, looking at what they are doing. They are doing some amazing stuff, and making some amazing gains, fast. Go and look at cranbourne estate in dorset for example, kingsclere in hampshire, welford in berkshire etc etc there are a lot of examples, of big places developing financially successful mixed farming models, whilst working in harmony with nature.

I am perhaps a little biased, as part of what I do for a living is offer consultancy to just such large estates lol.

Lots of things may have been true in the past, but we arent in the past anymore.

I have nothing against smaller farms and I wish to see them survive, otherwise they will end up being yet another place a rich knob from london buys to keep ponies, 12 ornamental sheep. . . . and be tax efficient.

But i dint understand why we dont see more co-op work between small operators? If 5-10 small farms in an area worked together to form a farming partnership, they would be able to do some amazing things. But inherently, farmers struggle to work together.

 

[CopperBeech]

A flock of sheep fed outside keep thousands of small birds alive in winter, a 500 ac block of wheat does nothing

Arguably, a 500 acre block of spring cropping, which was 500 acres of a diverse cover crop in winter, with sheep on it. . . . . .would be better than either.

 

[jendan]

I think we are arguing two different things mate.

I am saying that if someone makes a commitment to farm in harmony with nature across 15,000 acres or whatever, they are able to have a greater impact than someone with 50.

I spend quite a lot of time on some big estates, looking at what they are doing. They are doing some amazing stuff, and making some amazing gains, fast. Go and look at cranbourne estate in dorset for example, kingsclere in hampshire, welford in berkshire etc etc there are a lot of examples, of big places developing financially successful mixed farming models, whilst working in harmony with nature.

I am perhaps a little biased, as part of what I do for a living is offer consultancy to just such large estates lol.

Lots of things may have been true in the past, but we arent in the past anymore.

I have nothing against smaller farms and I wish to see them survive, otherwise they will end up being yet another place a rich knob from london buys to keep ponies, 12 ornamental sheep. . . . and be tax efficient.

But i dint understand why we dont see more co-op work between small operators? If 5-10 small farms in an area worked together to form a farming partnership, they would be able to do some amazing things. But inherently, farmers struggle to work together.

Perhaps offer your services to Lowther estates near Penrith.I think they amalgamated there sheep enterprise into one place,running several thousand mules with 3 or 4 shepherds.Last i heard they were dispersing them,and shepherds made redundant.

 

[BrianV]

Do you own the ground and the hedges ?

We do but makes no difference the laws the law & applies to owned or rented land & hedges.

 

[Tarw Coch]

I am saying that if someone makes a commitment to farm in harmony with nature across 15,000 acres or whatever, they are able to have a greater impact than someone with 50

Odds on the 50 acre farm will have much smaller field size with more hedges and as such will be providing more habitat for wildlife without even trying

 

[unlacedgecko]

You have replaced 8 shepherds with 4. The assistant and general manager will be be managing the whole estate,not just the sheep.

I didn't mention estates. Look at the large sheep properties in NZ and Australia. Or closer to home, some of the large farming properties in Scotland.

They have a factor who manages the whole estate, but still have a manager, assistant manager and stockmen for the livestock enterprise.