Enforcement Notice- Grounds of Appeal

Hello.... another planning question, please;

If the LPA were to assume that the building I've put up (without permission) is for a dwelling, how can I convince them that it isn't?
I've installed a WC/shower, (the dogs roll in fox poo), but there is no kitchen, bedroom, lighting or heating. The main purpose for the building is storage of tools and garden equipment, (I manage the one acre site for nature) & there's a mezzanine floor, which I hope will provide an art studio/rest area.
What constitutes a dwelling?

Thanks, Dx

 

[Dookist]

Doorkist, I’m getting slightly confused. You said it was unimproved and ‘uncultivated for 100 years’, but then say it was previously developed land?. Also that it has a an approved sewage treatment plant in situ - is this something you put in, or was already there.

Perhaps you might care to explain exactly what the situation is, what was there in the first place, did you put the concrete pad and silo there. Seems to me you might get a more positive response and helpful suggestions if you were completely honest about the background, at the end of the day if you do go the appeal route it will all be examined in great depth by whoever arbitrates.

Hi Alchad... This is not classed as agricultural land. A water company purchased the land from a farmer 100 years ago in order to sink a 300' well which would supply the local area with fresh water. The water was last pumped in 1986 and since then, the land has not been used for anything... It is designated as Previously Developed Land (or Brownfield). Dx

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I wouldn't mind, but the farmer next door has just put in an application for a 200 acre solar park which will come right up to my boundary. It's bound to be approved as he's already put in a 50 acre solar farm a few years back. My silo doesn't impact anywhere near as much on the surrounding land as all those panels... Dx

seems that the planners or government are like teenage girls at a boy band concert at the mention of the word renewables!

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Thank you for the suggestion, but I really don't want the worry of looking after animals... I don't have the funds for vet fees. Years ago I had horses, pigs, cattle, etc... I know the work it entails... plus, this is not agricultural land.
I am doing something with nature & it makes me happy.... surely not too much to ask in the autumn of my life? Dx

I was thinking more on the lines of wouldn't a neighbour be willing to put animals in there for a few days every so often as a favour to you, really as a way of managing the land in the best manner for wildlife, rather than you getting livestock.

 

[Alchad]

Sorry Doorkist but you’ve only selectively answered part of my question and in a way that appears you are trying to put the best gloss on your case. It seems to me that you have too much emotional and probably financial capital tied up in this venture of yours and you need to step back and rationally assess the mess “your word’ that you’ve gotten into, or perhaps ask a friend for an honest opinion. The thing is that you do appear to have flouted, knowingly or not, planning laws and the authorities have gotten wind of it. Unfortunately for you unlike other instances that many of us are probably aware of,it looks like you don’t have the financial ability to fight them, sometimes threatened with a costly appeal councils might back down but it’s a game of poker. Things being as they are if I were in your position I’d see if there was any compromise to be had with the authorities - I suspect the silo may have to go…maybe you could agree a timeline , or perhaps they’d give you approval for a small caravan if you agree to dismantle? It might also be well worth investing a few £ in getting professional planning advice which will steer you in the right direction to sort this.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Sorry Doorkist but you’ve only selectively answered part of my question and in a way that appears you are trying to put the best gloss on your case. It seems to me that you have too much emotional and probably financial capital tied up in this venture of yours and you need to step back and rationally assess the mess “your word’ that you’ve gotten into, or perhaps ask a friend for an honest opinion. The thing is that you do appear to have flouted, knowingly or not, planning laws and the authorities have gotten wind of it. Unfortunately for you unlike other instances that many of us are probably aware of,it looks like you don’t have the financial ability to fight them, sometimes threatened with a costly appeal councils might back down but it’s a game of poker. Things being as they are if I were in your position I’d see if there was any compromise to be had with the authorities - I suspect the silo may have to go…maybe you could agree a timeline , or perhaps they’d give you approval for a small caravan if you agree to dismantle? It might also be well worth investing a few £ in getting professional planning advice which will steer you in the right direction to sort this.

As @Alchad has said, knowingly or unknowingly you have found yourself in this situation. There is no cheap way out other than putting the land on the market and letting someone else deal with 'the mess'. An enfocement appeal under Ground (a) will cost you twice the application fee than if you apply for retrospective planning. The minimum application fee for a building is £462 so an appeal will set you back about £1000. This is without any drawings, plans, reports etc.

Did you demolish the pumping station? If so, did you have a Bat Survey done? Are there any waterbodies within 200m? If so you will need a Newt Survey. Are there any trees on site? If so, you may need an Arb Survey. You will also need to provide a location and block plan based on OS data (£25-£50) and full floor plans and elevations of the former building and the silo; a CAD technician will charge between £350 and £750 for planning compliant drawings.

I would speak to the enforcement officer, please ignorance and poverty and ask what route they would like you to take. There is no case for an inspector to see in your favour.

 

[Highland Mule]

OP bought an area of land, and has built a structure for them to live in, at least through the day, without bothering with planning permission. OP is now trying to justify that the structure is appropriate for land management purposes, even though they don't actually do any such activities and really just use the land as a wild garden for leisure/ recreation. Even worse, they are trying to claim some environmental benefit in scattering wild flower seeds, but have poured a big chunk of concrete as a foundation for said shed, hence causing far more environmental damage than abandonment would have done.

OP is now crowdsourcing for excuses as to why they should be allowed to keep said structure.

Fair?

 

[br jones]

As @Alchad has said, knowingly or unknowingly you have found yourself in this situation. There is no cheap way out other than putting the land on the market and letting someone else deal with 'the mess'. An enfocement appeal under Ground (a) will cost you twice the application fee than if you apply for retrospective planning. The minimum application fee for a building is £462 so an appeal will set you back about £1000. This is without any drawings, plans, reports etc.

Did you demolish the pumping station? If so, did you have a Bat Survey done? Are there any waterbodies within 200m? If so you will need a Newt Survey. Are there any trees on site? If so, you may need an Arb Survey. You will also need to provide a location and block plan based on OS data (£25-£50) and full floor plans and elevations of the former building and the silo; a CAD technician will charge between £350 and £750 for planning compliant drawings.

I would speak to the enforcement officer, please ignorance and poverty and ask what route they would like you to take. There is no case for an inspector to see in your favour.

Let's not mention a septic tank next to a well ,

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Let's not mention a septic tank next to a well ,

Not technically a planning concern but building regs and the EA may have a few questions

 

[br jones]

Not technically a planning concern but building regs and the EA may have a few questions

Here in Wales ( Monmouthshire ) they require the info on what tank/plant and drainage field ,you are putting in before granting planning (phosphate issues)

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Here in Wales ( Monmouthshire ) they require the info on what tank/plant and drainage field ,you are putting in before granting planning (phosphate issues)

Is that is a Flood Zone? It was only put on as a planning condition on an application I had in Ceredigion.0

 

[Dookist]

I am afraid you mightn't find total sympathy here.
We - farmers who manage land for food production - often have our hackles up the minute anyone suggests their alternative 'land management' goals are better than ours in some way....and many of us see what you're doing as, at best, 'messing about'.
For sure, it's your land, but most of us would expect your type of ersing about to have no more effect than leaving a few field margins unkempt, or holding back on the flail hedging a tad.
Seemingly your site was farmland til you bought it, but you're calling it brownfield. hmm.

Equally, many of us have played the planning game, exploiting what loopholes we think we can....that's human nature.
Some watch their non-farming blow-in neighbours doing it even more so, without the 'excuse' of also still having large areas left undeveloped.
Out behind one of my sites, a quiet backlane has something like what you're up to in every field. Every entrance is stoned, and leading to a horsebox/field shelter/'tool shed' etc...all with satellite dish and chimney.
It p1sses me off no end to be honest.

Listening to what you're saying, and the case you're trying to build, sounds exactly like thousands of other chancers most of us are familiar with.

Good luck, but don't expect much hand holding.

"Something like what you're up to..."
You're talking about travellers, I think... I'd have no problem with the LPA in that case...
Plenty of similar plots of land are being turned into travellers sites round here, purely because the council has an obligation to provide for 'ethnic minorities' and their 'cultures'... Yes...it pisses me off, too...I detest satellite dishes.
You're wrong about this land... it wasn't agricultiral when I bought it and the enforcement officer was very clear about that. It was probably a hay meadow 100 years ago when the local water company took it over.
I've never suggested that farmers are doing it all wrong...I'm sure you leave a good margin at field edges & flail sympathetically... Dx

 

[Dookist]

Is that is a Flood Zone? It was only put on as a planning condition on an application I had in Ceredigion.0

My plot is not on a flood zone (even the great floods of 1953 left it unscathed) but the land is solid clay... I have a diagram of the well, which is 350' deep, most of that is Thames clay...it bores through shells & chalk at the bottom & is close to a tidal river. The water is clean enough to drink but with high sodium/fluoride levels & it was considered to be a health risk.
I don't think septic tanks are allowed any more, but even if they were, you couldn't have a soakaway on clay. What I have is a water treatment plant which discharges very clean water into a drainage ditch. (Brian, I certainly wouldn't put a septic tank next to a well... that would be crazy!) Dx

 

[Cowmansam]

Just fill it to the brim with barley it’s got a function then

 

[Dookist]

I dont think any farmer has had trouble putting a shipping container in place for storage of tools etc. By their very nature, they are movable, waterproof, and lockable. You can get a second hand one delivered very reasonably.

Once you attach services, or put in stuff like toilet of shower then the ice becomes thin. Now, hiring in a chemical toilet from a local company who will maintain it - again, temporary and ticks all the boxes. And as you don't need to be on site maintaining an acre of nature for the winter months, you can just hire it for the summer.

It sounds like issue 1 is you took down an existing structure without consent. Then replaced it without consent - issue 2. With something unjustifiable - issue 3.

You want to take down a building? The ways are get consent, or look for the loopholes. The loophole for taking down is that weather has damaged it to an unsafe level and it needs removing for h&s. Presumable you took loads of pictures?

You want to replace a building? Then you needed planning permission. Did you get this? Sounds like no. Then it sounds like you need retrospective planning but this would still require you to justify your build, and it sound like a) you've not replaced the previous with anything vaguely similar and b) you've now pee'd off some locals, who've sent enforcement round, who've seen what's been done. They could be friendly as you like but fact is the hornets nest has been well and truely stirred.

Now you will have locals alerted, and I'll bet my bottom dollar that between then is enough nowse and £££ to be plotting to stop you even now.

So to avoid a mess, best ring @George from SJM Planning with a view to actually paying real money for real professional advice to get it sorted. Planning, especially now you've had "the telling" is not an amateur sport. Admit you're wrong, and pay someone to sort it out, while accepting their advice which may not be what you want to hear.

Fortunately, I've not knocked down the original building...it is still in situ and being used for storage. It's really ugly... it doesn't sit sympathetically in this agricultural setting... hence I thought I'd change it for the silo....but so glad I didn't demolish it.
The old pumping station is a red brick box measuring about 19' x 11' & which was used to house the guages & pressure equipment for the electro-submersible pumps which were installed in 1947. I'm sure it would never have gained planning permission these days, but this was back before the Town & Country & Green Belt, etc....
Back in 1921 when the well was first pumped, there would have been a much larger building on the site with a tall chimney to take away the smoke of the coal furnace which powered the steam driven pump. I still find bits of coal dotted around, plus old bottles...mainly Bovril, beer, whisky and some blue ones with "Poison" written on the side, which probably contained some kind of potion...(?) Strange to think that the well was being dug during the last pandemic, between 1919 & 1921!
So what we have is a redundant building which is too small to do much with & which, I guess, the LPA would be happy to see fall into dereliction, rather than allow it to be used for anything other than storage. I think the B1 use has now lapsed & the building is probably sui generis ... Dx

 

[Dookist]

Just fill it to the brim with barley it’s got a function then

I made a mistake... not a grain silo...but one which held slurry...(apparently)

 

[betweenthelines]

Dookist is clearly taking the pish.

Supreme irony is that he thinks we can do whatever he wants but gets upset when next door follows the rules to put up a solar farm!

 

[betweenthelines]

I have recently hired a young Thai lady to help the OH with the house work-the fact that she regularly "cleans" parts of my body with her mouth and also acts as a bed warmer to save using the electric blanket is coincidental.

No one believes that, and no one will believe the OP either

 

[egbert]

"Something like what you're up to..."
You're talking about travellers, I think... I'd have no problem with the LPA in that case...
Plenty of similar plots of land are being turned into travellers sites round here, purely because the council has an obligation to provide for 'ethnic minorities' and their 'cultures'... Yes...it pisses me off, too...I detest satellite dishes.
You're wrong about this land... it wasn't agricultiral when I bought it and the enforcement officer was very clear about that. It was probably a hay meadow 100 years ago when the local water company took it over.
I've never suggested that farmers are doing it all wrong...I'm sure you leave a good margin at field edges & flail sympathetically... Dx

'Something like what you're up to'
What i think you're up to is trying to get a dwelling on the sly....nothing to do with the travellers, although they do similar.

I don't leave any margins, cos i don't til any crops, and i have no hedges to flail.

 

[br jones]

Is that is a Flood Zone? It was only put on as a planning condition on an application I had in Ceredigion.0

everywhere just now ,its ridiculous

 

[teslacoils]

Fortunately, I've not knocked down the original building...it is still in situ and being used for storage. It's really ugly... it doesn't sit sympathetically in this agricultural setting... hence I thought I'd change it for the silo....but so glad I didn't demolish it.
The old pumping station is a red brick box measuring about 19' x 11' & which was used to house the guages & pressure equipment for the electro-submersible pumps which were installed in 1947. I'm sure it would never have gained planning permission these days, but this was back before the Town & Country & Green Belt, etc....
Back in 1921 when the well was first pumped, there would have been a much larger building on the site with a tall chimney to take away the smoke of the coal furnace which powered the steam driven pump. I still find bits of coal dotted around, plus old bottles...mainly Bovril, beer, whisky and some blue ones with "Poison" written on the side, which probably contained some kind of potion...(?) Strange to think that the well was being dug during the last pandemic, between 1919 & 1921!
So what we have is a redundant building which is too small to do much with & which, I guess, the LPA would be happy to see fall into dereliction, rather than allow it to be used for anything other than storage. I think the B1 use has now lapsed & the building is probably sui generis ... Dx

Ive got a really crappy, decrepit pole barn. But it can't come down. It's value is in that it is *there* and hence a bargaining chip for better things.

The water authority would get planning very easily.