Entangled Life

[Kiwi Pete]

but that doesn't explain a sister and brother who lost there teeth at a young age who have secombed to dementia , as did their father.

its a big subject, and more so as people live longer lives these days.

It is big.
Reductionist science fails to answer so much in a complex world.
That's why a human being has never had such a high price tag - too much faith in one thing and not enough in the other

 

[Spud]

Try searching permaculture titles, the principles carry over well to restorative agriculture.

One unsettling fact is that every civilisation that has depended on annual crops for its calories has collapsed. Every single one.

What we're discussing here could well be a part why this is so ?

From an outsider's perspective, Britain really turned that corner with the "Dig for Victory" / "Plough for wheat" campaigns and the inertia remains to this day, there just seems to be general disbelief that perennial species could ever provide enough nutrition to sustain such a population.

"Grass-Fed Nation" is a good read, possibly the UK equivalent of "Call of the Reed Warbler" in that it's an uneasy read for a farmer - but really provoking if you aren't a big Jessy about it

I'm going to be honest here, and admit that I haven't the foggiest idea what you just said!

What are you suggesting is the way forward?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I'm going to be honest here, and admit that I haven't the foggiest idea what you just said!

What are you suggesting is the way forward?

Ignore most of it.

But try various permaculture books and groups for inspiration, RA is a subset of permaculture and it's got a huge following in your region... every region

Despite annual crops being great as far as "jobs for the boys" go, and having a definite place, the future of food is probably also "the past" of food - perennial species as our staples, with opportunistic annual crops in between.

 

[egbert]

Try searching permaculture titles, the principles carry over well to restorative agriculture.

One unsettling fact is that every civilisation that has depended on annual crops for its calories has collapsed. Every single one.

What we're discussing here could well be a part why this is so ?

From an outsider's perspective, Britain really turned that corner with the "Dig for Victory" / "Plough for wheat" campaigns and the inertia remains to this day, there just seems to be general disbelief that perennial species could ever provide enough nutrition to sustain such a population.

"Grass-Fed Nation" is a good read, possibly the UK equivalent of "Call of the Reed Warbler" in that it's an uneasy read for a farmer - but really provoking if you aren't a big Jessy about it

Ah...perennial species. A combinable perennial starch food crop.....then you'd be talking.
Always puzzles me why that isn't the holy grail of crop research.

 

[Spud]

Ignore most of it.

But try various permaculture books and groups for inspiration, RA is a subset of permaculture and it's got a huge following in your region... every region

Despite annual crops being great as far as "jobs for the boys" go, and having a definite place, the future of food is probably also "the past" of food - perennial species as our staples, with opportunistic annual crops in between.

Speak english man!

Shall we all start grazing? Rememebr I live in England...where it rains..a lot.

For us to live without these 'easy fix' jobs for the boys veg, cereals and roots, we need conversion machines, known as livestock. And fruit, from trees I guess. So where do we get the rest of our nutrition? How do you see the future, in practical, realistic terms?

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Ignore most of it.

But try various permaculture books and groups for inspiration, RA is a subset of permaculture and it's got a huge following in your region... every region

Despite annual crops being great as far as "jobs for the boys" go, and having a definite place, the future of food is probably also "the past" of food - perennial species as our staples, with opportunistic annual crops in between.

Didn't permaculture start in Australia, based partly on thinking of P A Yeomans?

 

[Ffermer Bach]

thought so, Merlin Sheldrake is the son of Robert Sheldrake (who coined the phrase Morphic Resonance) I have his fathers book the science delusion here in my bookcase (waiting for me to read)

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Speak english man!

Shall we all start grazing? Rememebr I live in England...where it rains..a lot.

For us to live without these 'easy fix' jobs for the boys veg, cereals and roots, we need conversion machines, known as livestock. And fruit, from trees I guess. So where do we get the rest of our nutrition? How do you see the future, in practical, realistic terms?

English is by far the worst language to use!

What have you read about permaculture and syntropic farming so far?

And why, oh why, are you going to feed your apple to a sheep? Are you going to eat its poo? Why not pick the apple and eat it yourself?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Ah...perennial species. A combinable perennial starch food crop.....then you'd be talking.
Always puzzles me why that isn't the holy grail of crop research.

Because.... corruption.
Apparently you shouldn't even drill seed off your own heap. It's all so corrupt

But at least you can grow effing good trees, shrubs, veg and everything else in the meantime the real reason is apathy, greed, and bellies are full.

Food comes from shops, people have meaningless jobs in the big smoke. That's where your harvester is, to deal with multilayered polycultures - you need people.
Whatever it's going to take for that to happen.... well, I think it's going to make this covid pandemic look like a stubbed toe .

There will be wars over water before there are famines deep enough to send people out to pick fruits and nuts.... but at least there won't be so many of them I think we're maybe looking at a hundred-year timeframe. At a guess.

 

[Spud]

English is by far the worst language to use!

What have you read about permaculture and syntropic farming so far?

And why, oh why, are you going to feed your apple to a sheep? Are you going to eat its poo? Why not pick the apple and eat it yourself?

I have never heard of syntropic farming

I never said anything about feeding apples to sheep (and why the hell would I eat sheep sh!t?) I was suggesting that humans would eat fruit from trees alongside meat from grass. Much needs to be done however re the storange of what is very seasonal fruit, or the slack methods of annual cropping that you chastise become more environmentally attractive than fly fruit all around the world.

 

[Spud]

@Kiwi Pete having you been smoking something? It's all getting a bit deep.....

 

[Bury the Trash]

Ah...perennial species. A combinable perennial starch food crop.....then you'd be talking.
Always puzzles me why that isn't the holy grail of crop research.

yes they would compete better with weed and keep the ground covered longer it would want to be one with good disease resistance as well mind.

course that would affect the sales of chems, seeds, ferts plows and drills ... so not so good for the allied industries.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Anybody know of any books on regen ag written by anyone farming in a (northern) british climate? The majority I've come across seem to farm in a desert with a cold winter. Very different to here.

but Sales wouldn't be very high would they.

it would be far too simplistic and plain talking , blunt and down to earth ( )

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I have never heard of syntropic farming

I never said anything about feeding apples to sheep (and why the hell would I eat sheep sh!t?) I was suggesting that humans would eat fruit from trees alongside meat from grass. Much needs to be done however re the storange of what is very seasonal fruit, or the slack methods of annual cropping that you chastise become more environmentally attractive than fly fruit all around the world.

I think the idea of grass fed animals grazing orchards is they permaculture type of thinking, I can't remember what it is called, but thinking to grow vertically as well as horizontally. I think, we as a species went down the wrong track when we concentrated on annual crops instead of perennial, which again fruit and nuts are perennial.

 

[PSQ]

Went to a talk by Dr somebodyorother, who was the mycorrhizal fungi expert at (I think) Rothamstead. He said they'd not seen any ill effects on mycorrhizal fungi populations or health from using agricultural fungicides.

He seemed to know what he was talking about. Think all his studdies and expertise was about mycorrhizal fungi, so he was the man in the know. Can't remember his name.

Is there any data which suggests otherwise?

If you look at wheat fungicide trials, are we looking at the effect of the fungicide on the plant, or on the plant and arbuscular mycorrhizial fungi (AMF)?

I'd guess the latter, that fungicides have been developed and (self) selected through trials not only mitigate septoria and rusts etc, but either have a beneficial effect on AMF, or have the 'least worst' effect on AMF, compared to more antagonistic candidate fungicides that might, perhaps, have a detrimental effect on AMF and yield.

Ergo: we've already selected the least damaging / 'most beneficial' fungicides to soil health and crop yield.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

@Kiwi Pete having you been smoking something? It's all getting a bit deep.....

It's just outside your current ways of looking at the issue.
It's kinda expected when you discuss these things amongst farmers, because we really just look at single level cropping.
Grass with sheep. Grass with cows. Barley. Rape. Wheat. It's what we see everywhere!
So it sets our standard picture.

Well.... nearly everywhere. We have lots of native bush/forest around here and that demonstrates how nature designs things - it's nothing like our design.
That's why it works... but ours 'needs' work.

Likewise modern man needs a bit of work as well, yeah... we live longer. Hardly unsurprising that our actual "footprint" is about 120 times larger than it used to be.
Because calories aren't nutrition, we even eat 3 times as many calories...

And no but it would go down alright. Harvest is a good 3 months away

 

[Spud]

It's just outside your current ways of looking at the issue.
It's kinda expected when you discuss these things amongst farmers, because we really just look at single level cropping.
Grass with sheep. Grass with cows. Barley. Rape. Wheat. It's what we see everywhere!
So it sets our standard picture.

Well.... nearly everywhere. We have lots of native bush/forest around here and that demonstrates how nature designs things - it's nothing like our design.
That's why it works... but ours 'needs' work.

Likewise modern man needs a bit of work as well, yeah... we live longer. Hardly unsurprising that our actual "footprint" is about 120 times larger than it used to be.
Because calories aren't nutrition, we even eat 3 times as many calories...

And no but it would go down alright. Harvest is a good 3 months away

All very admirable vision, but what does it mean for farming, do you think? How/what should we be doing longer term?

(Serious question, not having a pop)

 

[Spud]

I think the idea of grass fed animals grazing orchards is they permaculture type of thinking, I can't remember what it is called, but thinking to grow vertically as well as horizontally. I think, we as a species went down the wrong track when we concentrated on annual crops instead of perennial, which again fruit and nuts are perennial.

Very romantic. How are we to feed the other 99% of the population?

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Very romantic. How are we to feed the other 99% of the population?

I think permaculture is far more productive, however there is a much higher labour input, but, at the moment we are using our labour to produce goods that the world can't support, so maybe that would even itself out.

 

[Bury the Trash]

I think the idea of grass fed animals grazing orchards is they permaculture type of thinking, I can't remember what it is called, but thinking to grow vertically as well as horizontally. I think, we as a species went

Very romantic. How are we to feed the other 99% of the population?

its more expensive than the idyl suggests as well because in practice they chew the bark eat the fruit or back agaisnt and break the branches or erode the rootszone..... so protection fencing needs to be in place .
no novelty to us as we graze parkland with chestnut trees in it dont chew the bark so much when theyre big but the the shade get tto be a bit of a challenge. i suppose by then its logburner time