Entrade, Environmental Offsetting and Trading

Biggest load of nonsense I've seen in a long time.

Money for old rope only there is no money and there is no rope.

Why does the UK persist with this make-believe carp? FFS, what is wrong with the old fashioned way: creating a tangible product or service and then selling it? Create wealth, not just try to constantly redistribute it in some kind of circle jerk.
 

sahara

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Somerset
It certainly has potential, but when I read through the mechanics of the scheme process it talks of farmers bidding to provide the environmental goods, to me this suggests playing one farmer provider against another, in a race to drive the price down.
My take is, if you as big business want to salve your conscience by me planting hedges on your behalf, then break out the cheque book, I don't want crumbs I want a fat chunk of the loaf!

The whole Red Tractor debacle has given me a real insight of how the positives of our industry have been hijacked by big business for their own commercial gains, leaving us (Agriculture ) with any blame, and just the crumbs of the money involved. Its time to get more awkward, organised and not to be afraid of telling others to pay a proper price for what they are getting.
 

N.Yorks.

Member
It certainly has potential, but when I read through the mechanics of the scheme process it talks of farmers bidding to provide the environmental goods, to me this suggests playing one farmer provider against another, in a race to drive the price down.
My take is, if you as big business want to salve your conscience by me planting hedges on your behalf, then break out the cheque book, I don't want crumbs I want a fat chunk of the loaf!

The whole Red Tractor debacle has given me a real insight of how the positives of our industry have been hijacked by big business for their own commercial gains, leaving us (Agriculture ) with any blame, and just the crumbs of the money involved. Its time to get more awkward, organised and not to be afraid of telling others to pay a proper price for what they are getting.

It's a tough one as there needs to be a system that has 'high integrity' to ensure everyone is doing what they should, because as we all know there are plenty willing to tick boxes and not actually make a change. So to that end there'll be audits and monitoring - which we'll just have to accept and get on board with. That all has to be paid for...... but it isn't acceptable to have brokers/intermediaries sitting there creaming off large %'s.

The markets will be supply and demand driven and it'll be government regulation that compels business and individuals to operate in certain ways eg. C net zero, biodiversity 20% net gain, clean water through nature based solutions. Regulation will drive the demand as will 'consumer education' - making consumers aware that their purchases of goods are environmetally better for them and everyone else. Who knows, there may well be a tax that is taken from everyone that goes towards supplying a sustainable stable environment that gets paid back to farmers/land managers - that's what ELM probably is going to be.

So I'm thinking we'll have a number of opportunities on farms:
- sustainable food output
- fibre production (wood/wool/hemp)
- SFI/ELM payments
- tradeable Carbon (forestry/woodland/soil)
- direct payments from businesses needing green credentials/biodiversity net gain
- direct payments from businesses wishing to protect their future (f**ked up planet doesn't guarantee future consumers!)

Different farms will pick and choose what works best for them........ if you've got Grade 1 land in arable producing 12t/ha and wheat is a good price then you may well not be putting that land into woodland to earn from carbon credits.

The farmer will have a significant degree of choice and can reject doing something if the price isn't right, the thing that was needed still needs to be done so the price will rise until someone deems it worthwhile. We probably won't be mega rich but we'll have a decent living - ultimately who needs anymore than that?
 

sahara

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Somerset
Entrade will be a source of income for farmers and a major source of income for Wessex Water!


That sounds about right doesn't it!

Seriously though, I think that from now on we as an industry have got to be more robust with these sort of things. The income share has got to start to slew towards at least parity.
If planting 100m of hedge allows Entrade to sell the environmental benefits for say £2000, then I want at least £1000, not a token £100.
We need to be able to value these things properly so we can talk to Entrade or whoever from a position of knowledge.
 
That sounds about right doesn't it!

Seriously though, I think that from now on we as an industry have got to be more robust with these sort of things. The income share has got to start to slew towards at least parity.
If planting 100m of hedge allows Entrade to sell the environmental benefits for say £2000, then I want at least £1000, not a token £100.
We need to be able to value these things properly so we can talk to Entrade or whoever from a position of knowledge.
If you’re doing all the work and they’re selling something for £2000 you ought to be getting at least £1900 which would give them a more than generous 5% cut for doing the trading
 

Tubbylew

Member
Location
Herefordshire
I'm rather scepitcal about all this carbon pricing stuff tbh, nature doesn't care if co2 is £1 per ton or £10000000 per ton, unless these carbon payments are large enough to stop people wanting to buy smartphones, electric cars, foreign holidays, televisions, laptops, ipads, electricity, central heating etc. etc. It's all fiddling while Rome burns. Sure it may make a bit of money in the short term, but what happens if farmer giles hasn't had the outcomes they expect and require, despite his best efforts? Its almost like they expect farmers all over the world to provide food and save the planet, or more likely blame all the worlds problems on all the worlds farmers.
As ever, it will be the auditors and inspectors that do the best out of the whole charade.

You cannot account and economise climate change away.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
I'm rather scepitcal about all this carbon pricing stuff tbh, nature doesn't care if co2 is £1 per ton or £10000000 per ton, unless these carbon payments are large enough to stop people wanting to buy smartphones, electric cars, foreign holidays, televisions, laptops, ipads, electricity, central heating etc. etc. It's all fiddling while Rome burns. Sure it may make a bit of money in the short term, but what happens if farmer giles hasn't had the outcomes they expect and require, despite his best efforts? Its almost like they expect farmers all over the world to provide food and save the planet, or more likely blame all the worlds problems on all the worlds farmers.
As ever, it will be the auditors and inspectors that do the best out of the whole charade.

You cannot account and economise climate change away.

It will happen, whether we engage with it or not. It will be enough of a struggle capturing some of this value, without trying to change the habits of society.
 

onesiedale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
Trouble is, as an industry we may get carried away selling carbon assets for £40/acre, then realise 5 years down the line that we need to be buying back at £45/acre so that we can fill the tractor up with diesel or spread fertiliser or even heat the family home!
Carbon operates in a natural cycle and we need to understand better how we need it to run our farm businesses before we give it away.
 

Tubbylew

Member
Location
Herefordshire
It will happen, whether we engage with it or not. It will be enough of a struggle capturing some of this value, without trying to change the habits of society.
Yeah I'm not saying folks shouldn't get involved and make a bit of money whilst they can, but it'll likely end up another stick to beat us with (not that we'll be able to do anything about it), I'm a bit suprised that the government have been so slow on the uptake tbh, iirc when I was in new zealand about 14ish years ago, the nz gov. claimed the carbon credits, no matter who owned and managed the trees, @Kiwi Pete would likely know more?
 
Biggest load of nonsense I've seen in a long time.

Money for old rope only there is no money and there is no rope.

Why does the UK persist with this make-believe carp? FFS, what is wrong with the old fashioned way: creating a tangible product or service and then selling it? Create wealth, not just try to constantly redistribute it in some kind of circle jerk.
You mean cut out the bureaucracy and cull the unproductive????
And tell the socialists to urinate off???
 

Banana Bar

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Bury St Edmunds
I like the look of selling another crop, particularly one I’ve grown largely to the standards I plan to achieve anyway.
I suspect the market value will be much lower than many think as so much of the worlds farmland is already capturing carbon with minimal intervention.

BB
 

N.Yorks.

Member
Business is going to be compelled to achieve net zero C by 2050 and some industries have decided to achieve this sooner. Farm businesses will have to achieve Net Zero like any other sector. There'll be business changes such as cutting out unecessary input consumption that doesn't effectively contribute to output for example, many other examples too. Farms will only be doing what every other business has to do.

We'll then have the opportunity to utilise land to maximise the capture of C through soil management and hedge/woodland/forestry creation.

The core farm business will then be able to offset their own carbon emissions against the C they capture (sequester); the surplus C they have captured will then be available to trade with other businesses who can't achieve zero C and have to offset.

This all makes sense in the medium term I guess, but then what happens once all business has eventually transitioned to zero C in the long term? The effect of net zero drives C trading/offsetting and halts further atmospheric increases in CO2, but what happens then? Atmospheric CO2 concentrations will still be high, not rising, what will drive the desire to then become Carbon negative ie. the continued capture of C to actually reduce atmospheric CO2?
 
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SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 77 43.5%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 62 35.0%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 28 15.8%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 4 2.3%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,286
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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