EU shows its true colours

Discussion in 'Brexit & Politics' started by alex04w, Feb 6, 2019.

  1. Farm buy

    Farm buy Member

    You have great humour
     
  2. Hilly

    Hilly Member

    Location:
    Scottish Borders.
    Give everyone an equal share tonight and by 29th march it will have returned back to the same % it is today.
     
    Danllan and rob1 like this.
  3. Yacker

    Yacker Member

    Sure as sh!t wouldnt get my share back....
     
  4. Hilly

    Hilly Member

    Location:
    Scottish Borders.
    Thats the thing though aint it, socialists want to steal off others but they don`t like it when the shoe is on the other foot.
     
    willy, Danllan, HAM135 and 3 others like this.
  5. Yacker

    Yacker Member

    Funny that? As a socilaist i have never taken from the state, never inherited anything, paid an absolute shed load of tax, collect VAT each quarter for HMG

    Yet i steal? What exactly
     
  6. Yacker

    Yacker Member

    think your confusing socialism with communism comrade...
     
  7. Danllan

    Danllan Member

    Location:
    Sir Gar / Carms
    Not really, communists are just more honest about their intentions. (y)
     
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  8. stewart

    stewart Member

    Location:
    Bay of Plenty NZ
    Apologies if I appear to have not answered your question, to save me looking it up in the previous posts and trying to guess what I have not answered, perhaps you would do me the courtesy of asking it again.

    What is this "underclass" you refer to? As far as I am aware both the UK and NZ have fairly rigid labour laws with a basic minimum wage in place, while this may seem a low rate to many and it quite possibly is, to obtain a reasonable labour force we have to pay substantially above the minimum rate, I assume (possibly incorrectly) that the UK would have to do the same, both countries also have a high level of employment, without the immigrant labour who on earth is going to carry out essential tasks.

    We do have mass immigration in place or at least open immigration policies, although as in the UK this is only available from specific countries, we have an immigration system that quantifies desirable and permitted immigration (same as the UK does) included in that system is a quota for entrepreneurial investors, again the same as the UK, how many Russian oligarchs are there in London?

    There was no intention to impute that foreign aid should be stopped, I just think it is preferable to allow peoples from disadvantaged nations to work in the countries that need them, sending their hard earned income home, than it is to merely give them a cash handout, the UK needs labour from Eastern Europe, we need labour from the Pacific Islands.

    New Zealand trades with many countries around the world, some of them have free trade agreements, those agreements are after many years of hard protracted negotiation, I accept that the UK will find it easier to obtain free trade agreements than we do, NZ is a net exporter whereas the UK is a consumer nation, of course Nations want to trade with you, not so they can buy your manufactured or agricultural goods, they want to trade so they can sell whatever it is they have.

    It was not too difficult to spot how close the referendum result was, it was so close that I would not consider it a rounding endorsement for Brexit, however the criteria was for a majority, irrespective of how small that majority was, a win is a win is a win, and as you have pointed out most of the Remainers accept that result, I would hope that the Brexitears also show the same decorum and are magnanimous in victory and accept that there is a process to go through when leaving.

    You have pointed out that New Zealand is the fount of all sociological wisdom, I personally would not go that far, although there is a lot that the UK could learn from NZ, just as the reverse is true, there is a lot for everyone to learn from different cultures, the more we learn from each other the better world we can all live in, that is far preferably than thinking that you know everything, are the best at everything and the rest of the world is just inferior.
     
  9. stewart

    stewart Member

    Location:
    Bay of Plenty NZ
    I would say false, I employ up to 20 Islanders at different times of the year, our work is seasonal so do not employ that many full time, I would take on more if we could, some may be a threat or a burden but you could say that about any particular race.

    The fact that there are no pure bred Maoris left indicates just how integrated the Maoris and Pakehas are.
    Hung Parliaments generally get sorted fairly quickly, we have proportional representation which I was always opposed to until I lived with it, seems to work ok and takes out the huge swings in policy that can result from a FPP, FPP can also result in hung Parliaments, isn't that what you have now with DUP?
     
    arcobob likes this.
  10. stewart

    stewart Member

    Location:
    Bay of Plenty NZ
    The official leave campaign ran for the hills once the referendum was over, which could account for them not being in government.

    If your balance of trade is positive does that give lie to the oft quoted comment "They need us more than we need them" ?

    Whether the majority did the right thing only time will tell.
     
  11. stewart

    stewart Member

    Location:
    Bay of Plenty NZ
    "If you tremble with indignation when you see injustice you are a comrade of mine, come join the revolution Brother"
     
  12. arcobob

    arcobob Member

    Location:
    Norfolk
    There are capitalists who are closet socialists, socialists who are closet communists and communists whose ideology is transparent and a failed one at that.
     
    Hilly and stewart like this.
  13. arcobob

    arcobob Member

    Location:
    Norfolk
    They gave space for a moderate remainer to negotiate on a fair and equitable basis. This showed respect for the minority. Then we had Bliar batting for the EU, feeding them all sorts of ideas and information which resulted in Tusk, Barnier and co building a brick wall and showing their true colours. The remain inclined government were undermined by treachery thus proving that you have to fight fire with fire and the main reason that democratically minded remainers have failed in their task to come up with a solution.
     
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  14. Hilly

    Hilly Member

    Location:
    Scottish Borders.
    Reads like your a Capitalist but closet socialist , or more like a fantasist.
     
    willy likes this.
  15. Danllan

    Danllan Member

    Location:
    Sir Gar / Carms
    Unanswered q's:

    1) If you had to choose today, would you want NZ to be subject to an unelected legislature that cost you a huge amount of money (£ half a trillion so far...) and, amongst many other negative aspects, guaranteed that your own population's most needy people were undercut in the job-market?

    2) What is xenophobic / small-minded (Little-English?) about wanting to be able to trade more freely at our own behest with more countries, and to decide who from across the whole world is allowed entry to this country, rather than just have an exclusive automatic right of entry to Europeans?

    You assume wrongly about wages in the UK, becauss of what has been, effectively, unlimited cheap labour, there has been no reason whatsoever for employers to pay over the miniimum wage – by pure coincidence, now that Europeans are not coming in such vast numbers, wages have begun to rise, even at the bottom. 'Essential tasks'... despite the highest employment ever, we still have people who are not working.

    NZ's 'open' immigration pollicy applies to what is only the tiniest fraction of the number of people that EU membership imposes upon the UK, it isn't comparable. As for the oligarchs, I deplore their entry and remind you that I'm not the one preaching...

    You were pretty explicit in linking my belief in limiting immigration with foreign aid, it's in writing. The UK doen't 'need' labour from anywhere while part of our own population is unnecessarily standing idle, although I will agree with you if you say that many want it.

    The problem with being 'magnanimous' in victory, with regard to the referendum result, is that it was a simple binary question, it being made very plain by the Government and both sides in the campaign that leaving the EU would mena exiting the SM and CU too. If we, the majority, are 'magnanimous', i.e. accept what a small minority of remainers - who don't accept the result – want, it means that we will both be invalidating the democratic process and not getting what we voted for. Tale a moment to consider what they would be doing now to be 'magnanimous' to us, had they won the poll, they answer is blindingly obvious, nothing...

    All countries can learn from others, a platitude if ever there was one. We, both the UK and NZ are superior to many other places, although far from perfect.
     
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  16. wanton dwarf

    wanton dwarf Member


    Totally disagree.

    1.2 million people was the margin in the referendum.

    In the ensuing General Election 80+% of the electorate voted for parties with Leave in their manifesto.

    The Liberal Democrates, the only party advocating Remain, lost their vote share and Nick Clegg the LibDem leader and Remain advocate lost his seat.

    You do not have an argument and are looking at the issue through rose tinted glasses .. I would say jaded Liberal glasses.

    Don't be surprised if future UK politics changes significantly.

    BTW Local party associations are in the process of throwing out MPs which refuse to advocate Leave.
     
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  17. Hilly

    Hilly Member

    Location:
    Scottish Borders.
    One or two of you fellas talking about Scotland should remember when them clowns had a referendum it was going to be a no deal situation , they didn't even now what currency we would would be using , they didn`t have any proof of continued eu membership , they did have Spain lined up to veto that ! they based their accounts on value of oil which was ? and is now ? less a lot less.
     
  18. Hereward

    Hereward Member

    Location:
    Peterborough
    Sorry I have done that wrong, hands up. Of course we have a balance of trade deficit with the EU, that is we import far more than we export, so yes they need us far more than they need us. Unless we need something that only the EU can produce, although I cannot think of anything that fits this category.
     
  19. stewart

    stewart Member

    Location:
    Bay of Plenty NZ
    No wonder I didn't answer that question with a direct yes or no, the question is biased in the extreme and bears no resemblance to how many see the EU. I will however answer the very loaded question with a direct yes or no with a rider attached that the country or region you are describing is probably North Korea and not Europe, the answer would be a definitive no.

    Looking at the different parts of the question, the parliament of Europe is elected hence Farage and his band of MEPs, the Commissioners are appointed, for a period of 5 years, similar to government ministers, and very similar to how many democracies around the world work, UK included, EU Commissioners can be forced to resign on masse with a vote of no confidence from the parliament.

    There are two parts to the cost, the amount paid in and the amount received, the UK obviously pays in more than it receives due to being a relatively wealthy nation, I personally see no problem with this and do not view it as negative.

    I would dispute that the populations most needy are undercut in the job market, unemployment is low, there is no need for anyone to be out of work, a minimum wage ensures everyone receives a reasonable pay packet.

    Nothing wrong with want to trade with more freely with other nations, from recollection I did not use the terms xenophobic or "Little Englander" in that context. Why then vote for Brexit when you are quite likely going to be trading freely with less.

    At least we agree on one thing, "Both the UK and NZ are superior to many other places, although both are far from perfect."
     
  20. stewart

    stewart Member

    Location:
    Bay of Plenty NZ
    Not surprised you disagree, the numbers are public Knowledge and the result was close, whichever way you look at it, If you want to play with numbers 16,141,241 people voted against leaving, the number is irreverent as more voted to leave.

    Did 80% vote for parties with leave in their manifesto? Which parties were they?

    What has politics got to do with the result, people from both ends of the political spectrum voted either way.
     

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