Euthanasia

[Old McDonald]

Two questions - answers

No.

How? Somebody has to source them and get them there. If you reckon it took several decades then they would all have to reproduce a breeding pair several times over - many times in some cases. The logistics make it impossible.

Remember Genesis tells us that Noah had to take food for everything too. As I pointed out above, that food had to last more than six months, 40 days rain + 150, and Ch8 states it was 10 months before the tops of the mountains could be seen.

I do not believe the story, but I have no problem with you believing it.

 

[Osca]

The Ark was the point of no return for me in my acceptance of atheism; not because of any lack of likelihood - because, hey, this is a God who can work miracles if required - unlikelihood doesn't necessarily negate the story.
But I began to tell the story to my four-year-old daughter, thinking that it was about time she learned something about religion as she would meet with it when she went to school. I thought some of the stories were as good a way to introduce it as anything and Noah's Ark was a great way to start, as she liked animals.

We'd got to the bit where the flood waters were rising and the Ark was starting to float - I was really giving it some welly - when my daughter asked - "What happened to all the other animals?"

"Er - they drowned..."

Her little eyes opened wide with horror and she said "God is BAD!"

And you know - she was absolutely right. (From out of the mouth of babes and all that). Remembering that this is supposedly an omniscient, omnipotent being, there could be no excuse for deliberately drowning so many innocents. If a human did this to surplus stock they would be prosecuted. Likewise so many other "God" stories - the viciousness, the cruelty, the spitefulness - to believe in them today one has to make excuses for God - Oh, it's really the Devil's doing, or These old stories have become distorted - or It would all be for the best, in the long run - the end justifies the means... but a weak, mortal, human being having to make excuses for a god suggests that this is a very inadequate God indeed - loathesome if he were to exist but more likely to be formed out of the fear and spite in the minds of men, who wanted t see their enemies smitten and their own laws justified.

A Christian friend said - "But that is all the Old Testament - the New Testament is about Love". This made some sense until I realised that central to the New Testament is the idea of the same nasty deity demanding a human sacrifice to settle an old score against his hapless creations whom he had left very much at the mercy of a predator, to test their loyalty.

I began to think how God's alleged behaviour would translate to human experience. So, imagine leaving your children shut in th house with a box of matches and a can of petrol on the table - "Now you can do whatever you want, children, as long as you DON'T TOUCH THE MATCHES"... and then defending yourself in court after the inevitable disaster by saying that you wanted to test their obedience and in your view their free will, though unsupported by experience, made it too important for you to intervene and save them...

So - no. God does not exist. I'm a lot happier knowing that to be true and knowing that the misfortunes of life are nothing personal; not a test, not a punishment - and that no-one is damned.

 

[Old McDonald]

@Osca a brilliant post. I just wish they would let us get on with being non-believers.

 

[Osca]

@Osca a brilliant post. I just wish they would let us get on with being non-believers.

Thanks OldMcDonald - but to be fair, most of them do. There's one person on here in particular, clearly deeply Christian and whom from her posts, I can really respect - so it works for some people, though I don't know how. It does trouble me that our difference in beliefs puts a chasm between me and such as herself, and no way to bridge it - but I can't undo my glimpse of the truth and I don't think, now, my opinion will ever change.

 

[Farmerdunk]

Two questions - answers

No.

How? Somebody has to source them and get them there. If you reckon it took several decades then they would all have to reproduce a breeding pair several times over - many times in some cases. The logistics make it impossible.

Remember Genesis tells us that Noah had to take food for everything too. As I pointed out above, that food had to last more than six months, 40 days rain + 150, and Ch8 states it was 10 months before the tops of the mountains could be seen.

I do not believe the story, but I have no problem with you believing it.

Nothing is impossible.
It was a big boat, big enough to carry enough food.
I do believe it and I don't have a problem that you don't believe it. I cannot and I'm not trying to change you or anybody, just saying what I think, like you say what you think.

 

[Old McDonald]

Some things are impossible, including the size of the boat being able to carry all the animal species of the world and their food. You do realise the specialities of the diet of some species I presume? Fresh and growing being a requisite of many. 300 x 50 cubits is too small for the purpose.

The best way to show you are not trying to change anyone's mind is to stop posting reasons why you believe in miracles.

 

[Farmerdunk]

Why should I stop and its alright for you to carry on saying you don't believe?
Like I said its my view, and you have your view. That's allowed isn't it.

 

[Old McDonald]

Of course it is, I will stop so soon as you stop referencing my posts and either asking me questions or making statements contrary to those I post.

 

[Farmerdunk]

Like you said in an earlier post,this has gone completely off the original post. Time to call it a day.

 

[Old McDonald]

Agree.

 

[alex04w]

The subject of the Ark has been discussed and concluded, so I do not propose re-opening it. However this post cannot go unchallenged.

Her little eyes opened wide with horror and she said "God is BAD!"

And you know - she was absolutely right. (From out of the mouth of babes and all that). Remembering that this is supposedly an omniscient, omnipotent being, there could be no excuse for deliberately drowning so many innocents.

Firstly, if you bothered to read the story, you would note that they were not 'innocent'. It says in Genesis Ch 6 vr 5 "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". Continually evil is not innocent!

Secondly God sent Noah to tell them to change their ways. Noah preached and offered a way out of the flood (via the Ark) for about 60 years. But in that day, as in this day, the folk laughed at God.

How can God be "loathesome" for making a way of escape and giving about 60 years warning of what was coming?

It is the same today. God has clearly said in 2 Corinthians Ch 6 vr 2 "Behold now is the day of salvation". He gives people a means of salvation and escape from the judgement to come and gives them time to accept His gift and folk just laugh at Him and say he does not exist so that they can in their own mind avoid dealing with Him.

 

[Old McDonald]

But if it happened, it would also mean that all other living creatures in the world were also continually evil, since, in the Biblical version, all living creatures were destroyed - apart from the immense number of pairs on the Ark. Can animals be evil in their thoughts?

I sometimes wonder what every imagination of the thoughts of my heart are only evil continually. I believe I have lived my life as a more caring individual than most (and I use the word advisedly) religious people I have come across.

 

[alex04w]

You are talking like a vegan. Animals being sooooo important that their death matters and they cannot be killed. Animals being given some sort of sentient intelligence with thoughts so that they matter. Next you will not be picking your olives in case you cause them pain and it results in the death of the fruit. Maybe you should delete your post before more livestock farmers see it and take issue with you destroying their industry by placing animals on a pedestal like Hindus with their cattle.....

It amazes me the lengths that some people will go to and how they will twist and make pointless arguments to avoid thinking about the possibility of God.

I think you must also define the word 'religious'. There are many religions. Islam is certainly not a caring religion - just look at the application of Sharia law in Islamic countries. Catholicism is a man centred religion ignoring 1 Timothy 2 v 5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". Do not look to fallible man (or a fallible church made up of fallible men) who are imperfect and fail, but look to God and his standard, the bible, because judgment is not about whether you do better than your neighbour.

 

[Old McDonald]

You are talking like a vegan. Animals being sooooo important that their death matters and they cannot be killed. Animals being given some sort of sentient intelligence with thoughts so that they matter.

I just hate the waste of good food. Animals do matter. They are a very important part of my diet. I think all non-religious livestock farmers would be most upset to have their stock indiscriminately killed on the whim of some God. Probably religious ones too.

It amazes me that people can believe in a supreme being or beings. So we are both amazed by opposite sides of the same notion.

Religious to me means following the notion of some unknown supreme being or beings. They all claim to be peaceful and kind towards the rest of humanity etc. It would appear that some, such as yours (whatever it is) considers that the death of animals by purposeful drowning by one of these supreme beings does not matter. I was not previously aware of such callousness.

 

[Pond digger]

You are talking like a vegan. Animals being sooooo important that their death matters and they cannot be killed. Animals being given some sort of sentient intelligence with thoughts so that they matter. Next you will not be picking your olives in case you cause them pain and it results in the death of the fruit. Maybe you should delete your post before more livestock farmers see it and take issue with you destroying their industry by placing animals on a pedestal like Hindus with their cattle.....

It amazes me the lengths that some people will go to and how they will twist and make pointless arguments to avoid thinking about the possibility of God.

I think you must also define the word 'religious'. There are many religions. Islam is certainly not a caring religion - just look at the application of Sharia law in Islamic countries. Catholicism is a man centred religion ignoring 1 Timothy 2 v 5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". Do not look to fallible man (or a fallible church made up of fallible men) who are imperfect and fail, but look to God and his standard, the bible, because judgment is not about whether you do better than your neighbour.

Why did your deity create evil?