Ewes blowing guts out

hubbahubba

Member
Location
Sunny Glasgow
Ive had issues before. Since started putting epsom salt / magnesium sulphate in there water troughs i haven't had this inside once. A friend has had the same since i suggested it. Just a few holes in the bag and drop into water troughs. I would be very interested in hearing if it helps others. Maybe worth a go.
Screenshot_20220121-165644_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
Or a genetic factor actually in pelvic floor 'design' or natural strength ?

after the cause ......Trouble is once the intestines or something equally disastrous gets pushed /kinked in around the pelvis itself that's going to cause one heck of an irritation ...

I would eliminate the physical design idea as evidence from NZ farmers who have shifted to new farms with their flocks: Those who formerly farmed in Eastern Southland hills (soils very high in K, not needing Potassium fertiliser except where hay/silage was removed annually, but required lime regularly to maintain pH) had a history of prolapse in their flock. Yet when they moved those same flocks to new farms on alluvial soils or hill country in Western Southland (low K soils, requiring less lime inputs as naturally higher pH) saw the prolapse problem disappear. This pattern was reversed where farmers shifted their flocks eastwards into Eastern Southland.

Note; NZ farmers are a rather mobile lot, hence this trend in flock performance/problems has been well documented and observed by vets.
 

Kingcustard

Member
Had my first intestinal prolapse 5 minutes ago, hence why I am now reading up on what the factors are and what everyone else thinks in here.

This was a 4 crop texel ewe, in good condition but not what I would say was over fat.

Went to feed the first 150 in the shed due to start lambing this week and she just lay down and pushed the whole lot out, no uterus out, just guts.

One thing I did notice was that the intestines gassed up very quickly, tried to put them back in but she had them all the way out in under a minute.

Could the intestinal prolapse be to do with gassing up and then the pressure causing the prolapse.????

The intestines were like balloons when they came out or is that just what they look like when they come out.

I feed them hay, which is well made but off old grass, 1kg a day of nuts split in 2 feeds and they get 1 fodder beet a day each to try and stop twin lamb, probably about 0.5kg per head of beet.

No doubt everyone will tell me 1kg a day is a lot but have tried feeding less in years gone by and end up with thin mules with no milk and high rates of twin lamb.

I sometime use haylage but its a hastle getting it in and its starts heating if the weather gets warm, not to mention the year I got silage eye.

With regards to uterine prolapse, I had 100 of the ewes in a steep field and had a uterine prolapse every morning for 4 days so ran them in and that stopped it. I think walking up and down steep hills with a belly full of lambs can be a factor.

I've heard every theory for prolapsing, from breed, feed, fatness, minerals, too much exercise, too little exercise, too much fodder beet, pushing into feed rings to reach the bale, stress, too many lambs etc etc

I get a fair few bed out a year but save most with a prolapse harness, and have found that if I cut the fodder beet down to a minimum for the month before lambing, and keep them off the steeper fields when close to lambing the it is certainly less of a problem.

I've had every age of ewe put their uterus out, 1 2 or 3 lambs in them, every breed (although mules are the worst), fat ones do it, thin ones do it....... I honestly don't think there is one cause to it, probably many causes any of which can be the contributing factor.

I definitely think the risk of a few guts out with a little too much feeding is better than 600 thin ewes and endless problems with no milk or weak lambs.

As dad always says "if you have livestock you get dead stock"....... and it's probably the most annoying thing anyone can say to you when you are pulling a ewe out of the shed by the back legs.

One thing that is spot on with sheep is that as soon as you start thinking how you haven't lost a ewe for months, there will be one the very next day haha
 

Agrivator

Member
We have a number of ewes each year (about 2 in a 100) which have vaginal prolapses, and which with a retainer or harness, will usually lamb normally, with or without assistance. But I can't recall any of them pushing their lamb beds out after lambing.

We also have one or two ewes each year ( about 2 in 500) , which put the whole lamb bed out (uterine prolapse) soon after lambing. But I can't recall any of them having suffered from vaginal prolapse before lambing.

Which suggests that there is little or no connection between the two types of prolapse.

Ewes pushing their guts out is a completely different and much rarer issue. None survives, obviously. But it's something we have to accept as a sad occupational hazard. .
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
There is a connection between the different types , there's one symptom they all share and that is not strong enough/ weakened pelvic muscles and their ligaments .
and I should think after wards the damaged torn ligaments would be harder if not impossible to repair from one year to the next.
Its the reason those pelvic muscles and ligaments are in poor condition were after,(and given of course that these animals are heavily or relatively heavily pregnant } that's somewhere the cause lies .
See from post #49 on.
 

Kingcustard

Member
So even although I get rid of all prolapsed ewes from the year before, do you reckon a hard lambing may damage the ligaments in some way and give the ewe more chance of prolapsing the next year.

This wouldn't really explain first time lambers though I suppose.

Surely there must be some pressure build up that causes an intestinal prolapse as the anatomy of a ewe under normal conditions doesn't require ligaments to hold her intestines in.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
So even although I get rid of all prolapsed ewes from the year before, do you reckon a hard lambing may damage the ligaments in some way and give the ewe more chance of prolapsing the next year.
yes hard as in big lambs and carrying too much fat and if those ewes were not metabolising enough calcium as well ,etc etc

This wouldn't really explain first time lambers though I suppose.
but its a fair challenge to get ewe lambs/ maiden shearligs just right isnt it a big single and being too fat can reek havoc plus again lack of the correct minerals and amounts needed
Surely there must be some pressure build up that causes an intestinal prolapse as the anatomy of a ewe under normal conditions doesn't require ligaments to hold her intestines in.
The pressure comes from the growing lambs and possibly being too fat back there maybe at the same time a gut full, a big meal of cake , slow moving through , and also not helping would be a full bladder apparently, then the way out around through the pelvis with muscle tone and the broad ligaments holding them ...not fully fit through lack of minerals , calcium, ie a metabolic problem could cause the perfect storm.
the lambs arent yet in a position to be causing aload in that area higher up so the intestines get pushed through twisting and strangulating possibly triggering yet more pushing by the ewe a vicious circle the the intestine are pushed through the side of the Vagina because thats the weakest point at that time and the anus must be relativly stronger .

trouble is My brains tired now from thinking about it :oops: !:cautious:
 
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Kingcustard

Member
Perfect

All makes good sense.

I am never sure about the Calcium side of prolapses, I've had years were hypocalcemia is a big problem, particularly in Blackies, but there never seems to be any problem with prolapses in them even though they are obviously having Calcium deficiencies. Was told it was because they were getting too much Calcium from the feeding and so didn't start to mobilise their own Calcium reserves and so ran short. They were only getting half a pound of cake, but apparently Blackies do better thin than fat.

The worst year of intestinal prolapses we ever had was when we bought hay from England. It was amazing hay and the ewes loved it, but they got over fat on it and started exploding out the back.

The vet couldn't decide if it was because they were eating too much hay or because of the condition they had put in and were over fat.

Unfortunately we don't seem to get hay like that in Scotland, think it came up from Oxfordshire, high power stuff for sure.
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
Perfect

All makes good sense.

I am never sure about the Calcium side of prolapses, I've had years were hypocalcemia is a big problem, particularly in Blackies, but there never seems to be any problem with prolapses in them even though they are obviously having Calcium deficiencies. Was told it was because they were getting too much Calcium from the feeding and so didn't start to mobilise their own Calcium reserves and so ran short. They were only getting half a pound of cake, but apparently Blackies do better thin than fat.

The worst year of intestinal prolapses we ever had was when we bought hay from England. It was amazing hay and the ewes loved it, but they got over fat on it and started exploding out the back.

The vet couldn't decide if it was because they were eating too much hay or because of the condition they had put in and were over fat.

Unfortunately we don't seem to get hay like that in Scotland, think it came up from Oxfordshire, high power stuff for sure.
The hay itself (calorie or fibre wise ) wont cause prolapse imo thats an 'old wives' tale but read the bottom of GO's post #27 to see how minerals in it or other foragecan cause problems eg magnesium and potash .

and about the Blackies apart from being a lower bcs ? ...well that could be that the genetic bit again GO mentions in #56 about some breeds and their metabolism relative to this.

Its like what happens sometimes which makes things harder to suss out is that like when all reels on the one arm bandit lines up ! and bingo :cautious:
 

Lemon curd

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Yorkshire dales
Had my first intestinal prolapse 5 minutes ago, hence why I am now reading up on what the factors are and what everyone else thinks in here.

This was a 4 crop texel ewe, in good condition but not what I would say was over fat.

Went to feed the first 150 in the shed due to start lambing this week and she just lay down and pushed the whole lot out, no uterus out, just guts.

One thing I did notice was that the intestines gassed up very quickly, tried to put them back in but she had them all the way out in under a minute.

Could the intestinal prolapse be to do with gassing up and then the pressure causing the prolapse.????

The intestines were like balloons when they came out or is that just what they look like when they come out.

I feed them hay, which is well made but off old grass, 1kg a day of nuts split in 2 feeds and they get 1 fodder beet a day each to try and stop twin lamb, probably about 0.5kg per head of beet.

No doubt everyone will tell me 1kg a day is a lot but have tried feeding less in years gone by and end up with thin mules with no milk and high rates of twin lamb.

I sometime use haylage but its a hastle getting it in and its starts heating if the weather gets warm, not to mention the year I got silage eye.

With regards to uterine prolapse, I had 100 of the ewes in a steep field and had a uterine prolapse every morning for 4 days so ran them in and that stopped it. I think walking up and down steep hills with a belly full of lambs can be a factor.

I've heard every theory for prolapsing, from breed, feed, fatness, minerals, too much exercise, too little exercise, too much fodder beet, pushing into feed rings to reach the bale, stress, too many lambs etc etc

I get a fair few bed out a year but save most with a prolapse harness, and have found that if I cut the fodder beet down to a minimum for the month before lambing, and keep them off the steeper fields when close to lambing the it is certainly less of a problem.

I've had every age of ewe put their uterus out, 1 2 or 3 lambs in them, every breed (although mules are the worst), fat ones do it, thin ones do it....... I honestly don't think there is one cause to it, probably many causes any of which can be the contributing factor.

I definitely think the risk of a few guts out with a little too much feeding is better than 600 thin ewes and endless problems with no milk or weak lambs.

As dad always says "if you have livestock you get dead stock"....... and it's probably the most annoying thing anyone can say to you when you are pulling a ewe out of the shed by the back legs.

One thing that is spot on with sheep is that as soon as you start thinking how you haven't lost a ewe for months, there will be one the very next day haha
Lots of factors, but read the informative link in comment 49 by GO. It discusses cal unavailability being locked up by cations. Perhaps dont feed the high potassium fodder beet ?
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
if i was looking to find one reason to simplify the 'storm' in Feb 2002 that we had it would be that those maiden shearlings were too fat in the previous autumn, without that and the fact that those ewes contained twins and over fed cake later as well dont think it wouldve happened and it would just be down to one or 2 over the years but rare.
Moving a flock wouldnt remove that reason either would it because a flock can be too fat through pregnancy in any location although in our case the particular sheep involved were moved from a farm that was poorer feed wise than our place with all that ungrazed grass and in a better groiwnig area anyway no disrespect intended, and they hadnt had any trouble with that breed line on their place.
. no disregard of other contributing factors intended btw.
 
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Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
because that wouldnt help natural calcium metabolisation from the bones later either as well i mean to say .
but what about the 'pressure receptors' what ever they might be , that when that beginning with that little bit of the cervix or whatever pushing back, as a ewe goes to stand up or nips away from you when spooked, maybe some have more sensitive receptors in some way,compounding triggering off pushing /'contractions' .

The Urethra can twist / block as well which would cause the animal to push against it if it wanted a pee with a full bladder , bit like when they pee a lot after standing up from lying down a long time. :unsure:

thinking about That local study that Turner and Hindson did all those years ago mightve included a lot of flocks and different farming systems but im thinking that one thing that they most likely did not bring into the stirring pot didnt consider or note the movement /relocation of flocks /farmers one reason it never occurred was that around here we dont (or didnt so much back then ) move around so much , definately not so much as the Kiwi's have always done i should imagine :)
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
Perfect

All makes good sense.

I am never sure about the Calcium side of prolapses, I've had years were hypocalcemia is a big problem, particularly in Blackies, but there never seems to be any problem with prolapses in them even though they are obviously having Calcium deficiencies. Was told it was because they were getting too much Calcium from the feeding and so didn't start to mobilise their own Calcium reserves and so ran short. They were only getting half a pound of cake, but apparently Blackies do better thin than fat.

The worst year of intestinal prolapses we ever had was when we bought hay from England. It was amazing hay and the ewes loved it, but they got over fat on it and started exploding out the back.

The vet couldn't decide if it was because they were eating too much hay or because of the condition they had put in and were over fat.

Unfortunately we don't seem to get hay like that in Scotland, think it came up from Oxfordshire, high power stuff for sure.
just reread this about your Blackface's , ive never kept them , nearest weve had to them would be i suppose but bigger noe mules and had ordinary prolapses every now and then
Could be that you keep them leaner ? while later pregnancy needs good nutrition over feeding causes as many if not more problems in a lambing flock i reckon.
 

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