Ewes, no concentrate

[neilo]

Agree on the beltex etc struggling with the climate definitely not suited
always got plenty of hay or silage not the greatest quality hence willing to try kale or rape, as a break crop then reseed with a better lay than the pp currently covering the farm.
Main objective is to get the ewes right for this system, yes maybe cut back numbers a bit.

As long as you've got enough winter keep for them, why cut numbers back? Or compromise on growth rates from ram breed?
Swedes will provide more keep than Kale or rape, assuming you aren't in a dry area.
I don't feed concentrates to any of mine, twin bearing ewe lambs and triplet ewes included. I can't remember seeing a case of twin lamb in any of tat flock since I've been doing it (2008 onward). Again, not with mules. I do however get them off the grassland so that lambing paddocks have a chance of getting some cover by April. Mine are mostly wintered on various root crops, but the ewe lambs have stayed on rotationally grazed grass all winter, as it's been so mild it's kept growing slowly.

 

[tinsheet]

As long as you've got enough winter keep for them, why cut numbers back? Or compromise on growth rates from ram breed?
Swedes will provide more keep than Kale or rape, assuming you aren't in a dry area.
I don't feed concentrates to any of mine, twin bearing ewe lambs and triplet ewes included. I can't remember seeing a case of twin lamb in any of tat flock since I've been doing it (2008 onward). Again, not with mules. I do however get them off the grassland so that lambing paddocks have a chance of getting some cover by April. Mine are mostly wintered on various root crops, but the ewe lambs have stayed on rotationally grazed grass all winter, as it's been so mild it's kept growing slowly.

Would love to grow roots, but the deer damage them to much for my liking sense the kale/rape plus kale grows bloody well up here, my folks use to milk 60 Ayrshires and always said they did like hell on it.
Interesting times ahead,.

 

[Top Tip.]

As long as you've got enough winter keep for them, why cut numbers back? Or compromise on growth rates from ram breed?
Swedes will provide more keep than Kale or rape, assuming you aren't in a dry area.
I don't feed concentrates to any of mine, twin bearing ewe lambs and triplet ewes included. I can't remember seeing a case of twin lamb in any of tat flock since I've been doing it (2008 onward). Again, not with mules. I do however get them off the grassland so that lambing paddocks have a chance of getting some cover by April. Mine are mostly wintered on various root crops, but the ewe lambs have stayed on rotationally grazed grass all winter, as it's been so mild it's kept growing slowly.

Horses for courses,not every farm is suited to growing root crops,fair enough if you have a farm suited to growing these crops and a mind set to use them,but there is a cost to growing them too. In a year like this a lot of farms will have got off with feeding very little but with the root crop system you are committed 6 to 8 months previously to grow these crops.

 

[d-wales]

You could strip graze beet, to free up grass fields until they are ready to lamb. And sell any excess I've heard beet is going for £35 a ton in west wales

 

[neilo]

You could strip graze beet, to free up grass fields until they are ready to lamb. And sell any excess I've heard beet is going for £35 a ton in west wales

I grow 8ac of beet to graze if the othe fodder crops don't do as well, like an insurance crop, then lift all/some if I don't need it. I've lifted all of it this year and have sold all bar about 10 ton I've used (or will use) myself. I've been selling it at £25/t ex farm and wish I'd grown more tbh.

 

[neilo]

Horses for courses,not every farm is suited to growing root crops,fair enough if you have a farm suited to growing these crops and a mind set to use them,but there is a cost to growing them too. In a year like this a lot of farms will have got off with feeding very little but with the root crop system you are committed 6 to 8 months previously to grow these crops.

There is, of course, a cost to growing root crops. However, I can't think of another way of feeding a sheep overwinter for £3-4/hd (much less if I include the enviro payments I get for growing 'unsprayed roots'), and feeding them well at that.
When our group has compared costings, my forage costs are indeed higher than most, but my conc costs are many, many times less than most of them too.

I appreciate that not all farms lend themselves to growing roots, but there are also an awful lot that could, but choose not to IMO. I'm certainly not on light ground here by any means, but sheep do very well grazing out. It would be very different if I was to attempt to put bales out with a tractor/telehandler. In fact, I have very few places on this farm that I could contemplate putting ring feeders out, without some serious problems.

 

[irish dom]

In real wet weather do you have a back up from the swedes? Would love to grow them but afraid of the place turning to shite and them wading through it. Had very bad experience with ring feeders and wet weather. I am in the west of Ireland on clay and it likes to rain here alot. Would i be mad to try it? Anybody else manage it in high rainfall?

 

[neilo]

In real wet weather do you have a back up from the swedes? Would love to grow them but afraid of the place turning to shite and them wading through it. Had very bad experience with ring feeders and wet weather. I am in the west of Ireland on clay and it likes to rain here alot. Would i be mad to try it? Anybody else manage it in high rainfall?

My back up is the swedes.....
I've always aimed to have more acres of roots growing, then the theoretical amount needed for my stick numbers, to allow for a poor autumn (less crop growth) and/or a wet winter (lower utilisation). Last year was a prime example, as it rained more or less every day. I went into the winter with bumper crops, and thinking I might have to let a 12ac field to a neighbour for the tack sheep he takes in. In the end, we needed the extra as I had to keep moving the fences on more often than I normally would.
In a 'normal' year, whatever that might be, they could go back over any trampled crop, once you get a drier spell. We didn't get that last year though.
I'd sooner have spare crop to plough in as green manure (not happened yet, but probably will this Spring), than run out and resort to bales of feed that will never be as good feed as a growing crop.

We're on clay soil here, and get plenty of rain all winter (although nothing like the West coast of Ireland) but I find the only sheep that get really sh*tty are the ones that walk back and forth through a gateway to a grass runback, or those that have ring feeders to lie round.

 

[d-wales]

My back up is the swedes.....
I've always aimed to have more acres of roots growing, then the theoretical amount needed for my stick numbers, to allow for a poor autumn (less crop growth) and/or a wet winter (lower utilisation). Last year was a prime example, as it rained more or less every day. I went into the winter with bumper crops, and thinking I might have to let a 12ac field to a neighbour for the tack sheep he takes in. In the end, we needed the extra as I had to keep moving the fences on more often than I normally would.
In a 'normal' year, whatever that might be, they could go back over any trampled crop, once you get a drier spell. We didn't get that last year though.
I'd sooner have spare crop to plough in as green manure (not happened yet, but probably will this Spring), than run out and resort to bales of feed that will never be as good feed as a growing crop.

We're on clay soil here, and get plenty of rain all winter (although nothing like the West coast of Ireland) but I find the only sheep that get really sh*tty are the ones that walk back and forth through a gateway to a grass runback, or those that have ring feeders to lie round.

The gate ways are the worst for getting muddy, I don't really see the point of a grass runback, because they get twice as dirty walking to it. Much easier for them to sit under the hedge!!

 

[johnflimston]

I am grass only and my back up plan is to buy hay if we get a poor spring/winter
I haven't had to in the last 10 years with my own flock and didn't in the previous 15 working someone else's flock on the same system
Obviously I am in a better wintering area than many but there are plenty of people near me who have to feed their ewes most years ---why? Because they overstock every year and never learn
To me it seems better to run less ewes with more profit than more ewes (more work) with less profit?

What's your stocking rate summer and winter?

 

[Tim W]

What's your stocking rate summer and winter?

1 LU/ha

 

[johnflimston]

1 LU/ha

Sorry I meant separately, do you use tack to increase acreage in winter ? If not how do you utilise all the grass in summer.

 

[Tim W]

Sorry I meant separately, do you use tack to increase acreage in winter ? If not how do you utilise all the grass in summer.

1 LU/ha is average for breeding flock over the year
yes, I have winter keep ----separating it out into seasons
Summer I set stock at anywhere from 2 ewes/acre to 6 ewes/acre --- a little grass cut and sold for hay/silage
Winter I make sure I have plenty of keep paid on a headage ----figuring the acreage would be quite difficult
National average breeding flock usage (non SDA for year quoted above) was 1.2 LU/ha

 

[irish dom]

1 LU/ha

Ground must be cheap to rent if you can afford to run them that light. Does it burn up in the summer?

 

[Tim W]

Ground must be cheap to rent if you can afford to run them that light. Does it burn up in the summer?

My stocking rate is not far off the national average, what I spend on grass I don't have to spend on other feed. (people seem to forget that there is a high labour cost to feeding anything but grass)
Grass can dry up over summer

 

[irish dom]

My stocking rate is not far off the national average, what I spend on grass I don't have to spend on other feed. (people seem to forget that there is a high labour cost to feeding anything but grass)
Grass can dry up over summer

Was feeding stores in the muck all winter. Never again. Murdering work for no return. Have to say i like your approach tim but unfortunately land rent here is mental and competition is fierce even at unsustainable levels. Brown envelope from brussels pays for it not farming. Level playing field is only a pipe dream here anyway. Sure thats the way jyst have to work with it. Does pee me off when i see land being run down into the ground though and fellas just collecting at the end of the year

 

[willy]

So not to diversify another thread
Edging towards this,
singles get hay/silage adlib
Multiplies get a lb of cake at the moment 6 weeks before lambing with adlib hay/ silage
Would like to cut it out all together, moving to an all forage based system.
Lamb out side in April at present moving from mules to llyens, all permanent pasture presently at 1000ft+ up on the edge of Exmoor,
Thinking of growing forage rape or kale, for ewes to feed from Christmas,
Discuss, by all means shoot me down, but some positive comments / advice would be good,.

Either make sure you have dry ground over Dec Jan Feb so that you can save lambing pasture, or just house them on hay over these months and then put out on grass 5 weeks prior to lambing and they will do great.