Ewes which carry joint ill

[Old Shep]

Just wondered if anyone else has experienced this? We only lamb around 130 ewes so are able to keep good records which is how we came to notice this:-

We had a ewe a few years ago whose lambs were the first to show joint ill symptoms which then spread to some others (we lamb inside). The next year the same happened again - her lambs were the first with JI, too much of a coincidence so she went.

The next year we had bought in some in lamb Beltex/texel ewes and the lambs off one of these were the first to show JI, and it spread from there. Now this year - we are lambing in a completely different brand new building on a different farm, and this same ewe has a lamb with joint ill So we have isolated to try to restrict it spreading. Luckily the majority are already turned out. I've read that certain ewes can carry the bacteria in their lambing fluids and I know we have to make a decision about this ewe (it had to be one of my favourites didn't it!) but wondered if it could be hereditary? Should all offspring go too? If a lamb has joint ill and recovers completely could it possibly have some resistance to the bacteria as an adult?

 

[Farmer Fin]

Lack of colostrum can lead to joint ill. Ewe obviously has poor colostrum or reluctant to let lambs suck.

 

[M-J-G]

Lack of colostrum can lead to joint ill. Ewe obviously has poor colostrum or reluctant to let lambs suck.

+1
Most likely cause

 

[Old Shep]

Lack of colostrum can lead to joint ill. Ewe obviously has poor colostrum or reluctant to let lambs suck.

I get where you are coming from but lack of colostrum does not cause joint ill, it just causes the lamb to have less resistance. The bacteria (streptococcus is it?) causes joint ill. Last year with the weather I would have put it down to that too but this year this ewe had colostrum for ten! Real quality stuff and she's in good nick, lambs were suckled and full very quickly.

 

[Farmer Fin]

I get where you are coming from but lack of colostrum does not cause joint ill, it just causes the lamb to have less resistance. The bacteria (streptococcus is it?) causes joint ill. Last year with the weather I would have put it down to that too but this year this ewe had colostrum for ten! Real quality stuff and she's in good nick, lambs were suckled and full very quickly.

Lack of colostrum does cause joint ill. When I’m not farming I’m a vet.

You’re correct that strep is a common cause. These bacteria and others are common in the environment and live on the skin. Proposed route of entry are navel and tonsils. Control revolves around decreasing exposure i.e clean and dry environment, crutching ewes to keep udders and back end clean. These measures decrease the bacterial load exposed to the lamb. As lambs are born with no immune system they depend on antibodies in colostrum for an immune system until they are about 6 weeks old. If too much bacteria or not enough colostrum = joint ill. As you state it’s always the same ewe affected it sounds like your management is good, it’s the ewe with poor colostrum that’s letting you down. If she has lots then it may be a case of dilution.

 

[Pistonbroke]

What is the best treatment for it?

 

[Old Shep]

Thank you for your input Farmer Fin, and for your endorsement that our management is good.

 

[Farmer Fin]

What is the best treatment for it?

Synulox antibiotic seems to work best. It means daily injections for 5-7 days though. Quicker treatment started the better chance of getting a cure is.

 

[Longlowdog]

I'm interested in this. Terminal sires and any pedigree sheep only make sire or dam money if they are marketable as such therefore selection is fierce against visibly noticeable faults such as locked legs or deformities. As such you would think selection pressure would relegate heritable conditions to the sidelines quickly. I'm no expert or geneticist but it would make sense yes/no ?

 

[Farmer Fin]

I'm interested in this. Terminal sires and any pedigree sheep only make sire or dam money if they are marketable as such therefore selection is fierce against visibly noticeable faults such as locked legs or deformities. As such you would think selection pressure would relegate heritable conditions to the sidelines quickly. I'm no expert or geneticist but it would make sense yes/no ?

It’s an interesting point. Most heritable traits which produce a negative effect are quickly selected against. The issue sometimes arises where genes are linked and selecting for one trait inadvertently produces something else as well.

The issue with say poor colostrum and genetics is that certain pedigree flock are not managed the same as commercial. Normally lamb earlier / smaller group / more TLC. This can skew things. I think this is why you are seeing a rise in the popularity of pedigree flocks who are managed the same as a commercial flock when it comes to selling their genetics. Before I get a load of stick I’m not advocating one of the other. Every farm is different!

 

[ShooTa]

we have a hoppy pet - took her off mum due to JI./ did the jab course and now are just hoping it starts using its leg again.. otherwise it might have its one bad day early.

 

[Old Shep]

I would have thought (and hoped) that a ewe lamb with deformed joints in either a pedigree or commercial flock would be sent off for fat, not put in breeding stock. But not all lambs with joint ill have visible defects afterwards, especially if caught early, so they may go on to be bred.

My original question was that given that some ewes carry more of the bacteria which causes joint ill, does that tendency pass down to offspring. And if that offspring had been exposed to joint ill as a lamb would they have some immunity?

 

[Old Shep]

"The infection is usually caused by strains of Streptococci, particularly Streptococcus dysgalactiae. S. dysgalactiae infections are usually acquired in the first few days after lambing. The umbilicus is proposed to be the most likely route of infection (Watkins and Sharp, 1998), and it is thought that the main source of infection is from the vaginal tract of colonised ewes (Rutherford et al., 2014). S. dysgalactiae has been shown to survive on straw at 37°C for 42 days (Rutherford et al., 2014)." from www.farmhealthonline.com

So it the main source of the bacteria is the vaginal tract of the ewe, is it too much of a leap that some ewes maybe "carry" it more than others?

 

[Farmer Fin]

"The infection is usually caused by strains of Streptococci, particularly Streptococcus dysgalactiae. S. dysgalactiae infections are usually acquired in the first few days after lambing. The umbilicus is proposed to be the most likely route of infection (Watkins and Sharp, 1998), and it is thought that the main source of infection is from the vaginal tract of colonised ewes (Rutherford et al., 2014). S. dysgalactiae has been shown to survive on straw at 37°C for 42 days (Rutherford et al., 2014)." from www.farmhealthonline.com

So it the main source of the bacteria is the vaginal tract of the ewe, is it too much of a leap that some ewes maybe "carry" it more than others?

We know that we often get outbreaks of joint ill after periods of bad weather where people struggle to keep straw dry which fits with the straw / udder being the main harbour of the bacteria.

I’m not aware of any evidence that certain ewes have a higher population of bacteria than other. Sure there will be a degree of natural variation but I would very much doubt there would be significant difference. So I would think it probably is too much of a difference.

There is a lot of work coming out of human medicine showing the importance of being exposed to vaginal and colostrum bacteria (the good ones) in modulation immune function. Caesarian children and kids that have antibiotics in the first 6 months of life are much more likely to develop allergies and skin complaints. You could hypothesise that ruminants would be similar.

 

[primmiemoo]

Interesting thread and observations. I've noticed just how many healthy newborn lambs suck in birth fluids within a minute or so of birth. The sucking reflex often gets going before the urge to stand.

Had I been alert enough to think about the connection between good bacteria in birth fluids and the possibility of a lamb ingesting bad bacteria from elsewhere, I'd have noted down the early suckers to check against any incidence of joint ill later.

 

[andybk]

just a thought , if the bacteria is strep that causes joint ill , maybe the new mastitis vax (vimco) could help as this is based on strep infections in the udder , its not cheap , but neither is a crippled lamb , its very effective in dairy cattle i was told by vet that uses a lot around here

 

[Farmer Fin]

just a thought , if the bacteria is strep that causes joint ill , maybe the new mastitis vax (vimco) could help as this is based on strep infections in the udder , its not cheap , but neither is a crippled lamb , its very effective in dairy cattle i was told by vet that uses a lot around here

There is a joint ill vaccine already against a different family of bacteria. I don’t have any experience of the new sheep vaccine. However cattle mastitis vaccines have a limited efficacy with a lot of clever marketing behind them. When you dig in to it the benefit is not often clear unless looking at gram negatives.

The theory would be that vaccinating ewe would boost colostrum antibodies. Still need to ensure lamb gets colostrum.

 

[Devil's advocate]

It’s an interesting point. Most heritable traits which produce a negative effect are quickly selected against. The issue sometimes arises where genes are linked and selecting for one trait inadvertently produces something else as well.

The issue with say poor colostrum and genetics is that certain pedigree flock are not managed the same as commercial. Normally lamb earlier / smaller group / more TLC. This can skew things. I think this is why you are seeing a rise in the popularity of pedigree flocks who are managed the same as a commercial flock when it comes to selling their genetics. Before I get a load of stick I’m not advocating one of the other. Every farm is different!

Thank you for your input, farmer Fin.

How about Ellisphllis? Despite great care we get odd years with lots of it in the lambs hocks at circa 6 weeks of age. Most cure themselves. A Irish vet told me if they cure themselves their lambs would get immunity in the colustrum but it would keep recurring in cycles every 5 years or so.

My vet is totally against this & thinks all lambs that limp should have a 5 day course of Tylan.

It is very scary looking at limping lambs and doing nothing. When it happens we get odd ones with abcess in joints but most cure themselves.

I'm very confused about what to think?

 

[Farmer Fin]

Thank you for your input, farmer Fin.

How about Ellisphllis? Despite great care we get odd years with lots of it in the lambs hocks at circa 6 weeks of age. Most cure themselves. A Irish vet told me if they cure themselves their lambs would get immunity in the colustrum but it would keep recurring in cycles every 5 years or so.

My vet is totally against this & thinks all lambs that limp should have a 5 day course of Tylan.

It is very scary looking at limping lambs and doing nothing. When it happens we get odd ones with abcess in joints but most cure themselves.

I'm very confused about what to think?

Firstly I agree with your vet entirely. You have to treat antibiotics and painkiller. As you have said not treating leads to abscesses and condemned legs never mind a bigger check in growth.

As for the Irish vet. Hmm. I would hope your issue is not affecting a large enough proportion of your flock to confer some sort of flock immunity plus non infected sheep probably also have an immunity hence them not getting it.

6-12 weeks is a bugger of a period for lambs as colostral immunity is dropping and they are making their own immune system. Hence at this age pasturella and clostridials can be an issue never mind nematodirus and cocci, it’s a wonder any sheep make it to being eaten.

If I were you I would have a discussion with your vet and talk about ery vaccine as well. You may find it cost effective dependent on the level of the issue.

 

[Devil's advocate]

Firstly I agree with your vet entirely. You have to treat antibiotics and painkiller. As you have said not treating leads to abscesses and condemned legs never mind a bigger check in growth.

As for the Irish vet. Hmm. I would hope your issue is not affecting a large enough proportion of your flock to confer some sort of flock immunity plus non infected sheep probably also have an immunity hence them not getting it.

6-12 weeks is a bugger of a period for lambs as colostral immunity is dropping and they are making their own immune system. Hence at this age pasturella and clostridials can be an issue never mind nematodirus and cocci, it’s a wonder any sheep make it to being eaten.

If I were you I would have a discussion with your vet and talk about ery vaccine as well. You may find it cost effective dependent on the level of the issue.

Thank you

I've begged for ellisphillis vaccine but he won't let me have it.

We did once have 100% of lambs limping although all did recover. The Irish vet was sent out by local practice & we worked with him.

Some years we get the odd one with abcess though.