Fair play to FW for tackling AIC issue head on.

[Clive]

I wander if any law firms would look into this on a no win no fee basis. Now we can see who is funding who I will Have a word with NFU call first help line, they might be more interested now.

time has been put into this, there could well be a case to answer we were advised however it could be a very expensive battle

 

[Clive]

It will be an interesting discussion to have as to whether the AHDB are "worth it". For some the idea of having a vote on their future based on a single issue is crazed because of the other work they do. It is one angle and a reasonable one.

However there is an alternative point of view - if the organisation are not interested in helping on Red Tractor corruption and meglomania (and lets not forget RT in March this year was going all out to spread its tentacles into a lot of places it had no business and for a lot of farmer disbenefit) then are they really going to be worth it going forward on the other stuff in the longer term? Can you trust they have you the levy payers best interest at heart? Maybe someone else can do it better with a better remit?

AHDB are not sacred. At the moment I'm broadly speaking pro AHDB. But I would want to know they're on my side by the time the vote comes. If there is any NFU style obfuscation I'd be voting them to drift away.

A big step forward would be to push out the insistence that merchants must trade with a sticker from a single private company to place grain into the marketplace..

I would be asking AHDB to put that declaration box on passports and make red tractor genuinely optional

if they can’t do that then I‘m afraid despite the other good stuff they do I could simply not vote for them to remain

I expect I’m not alone as a cereal growers in that view

 

[theboytheboy]

Don't think they will roll over that easily. We've a bit of a slog ahead of us yet with a lot of obfuscation. But we will get there and your efforts are worthy of Farming Hero of the Year. Thanks

I could not agree more with this. I'm sure there is a whole group worthy of an award and when this issue is resolved I would love to see some industry wide recognition for those that have spearheaded this campaign.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I would be asking AHDB to put that declaration box on passports and make red tractor genuinely optional

if they can’t do that then I‘m afraid despite the other good stuff they do I could simply not vote for them to remain

I expect I’m not alone as a cereal growers in that view

The area of muddiness as I see it is that RT is technically still optional. Practically its not, but technically it may be.

The AIC (who buy the way are guarantors/ members ergo co owners of Scottish Quality Crops and Red Tractor) are compelling all their affiliated merchants to buy RT registered produce only in the UK. So on the surface it may look a virtuous circle but in reality its absolutely ripe for an inequitable market.

This is evidenced by the fact that Red Tractor are unanswerable at a practical level to all those who fund them (the farmers) and the those who theoretically represent a primary producer point of view (eg Andrew Blenkiron, Guy Smith) are paid by Red Tractor so its not a proper representation - evidenced by the fact that Guy struggles to engage properly and that Blenky has called any critics backstabbers (which we are not)

The next stage is we need to aggregate some of the merchants together who may see our point of view - they need us and we need them. Neither of us need Red Tractor. We need to find some principled and fair minded merchants who are prepared to recognise the daily hippocrasy of importing grain from abroad but are hands tied by the AIC for RT ie only able to buy grain from their "approved" sources in the UK. The NFU and AIC have little integrity on the matter but you would hope merchants who want a good working relationship with farmers might.

A few of the local merchants I deal with know its wrong but are not prepared to put head above the parapet yet

 

[SilliamWhale]

time has been put into this, there could well be a case to answer we were advised however it could be a very expensive battle

I think as time goes on we are getting more clarity on our position as more of the collusion reveals itself. So I think it may take a bit longer to mobilise but at the end of the day any legal case funded by farmers will have to be defended by Red Tractor and their owners whom farmers are also coerced to fund.

So there will be the interesting prospect of RT using farmers funds to defend itself against the very people who fund them. And then the very sad prospect that the NFU would very probably be using its funds to fight against its own farmers in order to protect a private business, all because it lacks the foresight and respect to see why farmers are upset about it all.

 

[tullah]

I think as time goes on we are getting more clarity on our position as more of the collusion reveals itself. So I think it may take a bit longer to mobilise but at the end of the day any legal case funded by farmers will have to be defended by Red Tractor and their owners whom farmers are also coerced to fund.

So there will be the interesting prospect of RT using farmers funds to defend itself against the very people who fund them. And then the very sad prospect that the NFU would very probably be using its funds to fight against its own farmers in order to protect a private business, all because it lacks the foresight and respect to see why farmers are upset about it all.

At least it's a forgone conclusion we will win. The whole case has been thrashed out here and already proven.
The icing on the cake is massive compensation from their guarantors and costs awarded against them.
Would this issue be worrying for current Nfu members?

 

[The Ruminant]

The area of muddiness as I see it is that RT is technically still optional. Practically its not, but technically it may be.

I tried to send a bull to an abattoir the other week. I was basically told that, because I am not RT, I would struggle to place it anywhere in E Anglia.

As you say, technically optional but practically not, and yet what restrictions are placed on beef imports to the U.K.?

 

[SilliamWhale]

At least it's a forgone conclusion we will win. The whole case has been thrashed out here and already proven.
The icing on the cake is massive compensation from their guarantors and costs awarded against them.
Would this issue be worrying for current Nfu members?

I think its tricky. Its an immoral trading position but proving its illegality is harder. I think UK competition law is complex.

But compelling a buyer to discriminate (like the AIC are doing) between two identical products is very fishy

 

[tullah]

I tried to send a bull to an abattoir the other week. I was basically told that, because I am not RT, I would struggle to place it anywhere in E Anglia.

As you say, technically optional but practically not, and yet what restrictions are placed on beef imports to the U.K.?

Disgraceful that the guarantors of RT can do this to you.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I tried to send a bull to an abattoir the other week. I was basically told that, because I am not RT, I would struggle to place it anywhere in E Anglia.

As you say, technically optional but practically not, and yet what restrictions are placed on beef imports to the U.K.?

However anti competitive behaviour examples:

• agreements which limit or control production, markets, technical development or investment, for example, setting quotas or levels of output;
• agreements which apply dissimilar conditions to similar transactions, placing other trading parties at a disadvantage.
• Examples of behaviour that could amount to an abuse by a business of its dominant position include:
  • imposing unfair trading terms, such as exclusivity

In the case of RT Grain, Jim Mosley has claimed imported grains are different because they are subject to " extensive testing before arrival". No one knows what those tests are so it may be a secret to Jim. Obviously I'm not a lawyer but the fact that AIC compels its members to buy RT grain makes the anti-competitive issue even more interesting

I'm not sure where it all stands with the Competition and Marketing Authorities. It could technically be a cartel ( limiting the supply or production of goods or services) but I'm not fully sure

 

[SilliamWhale]

I tried to send a bull to an abattoir the other week. I was basically told that, because I am not RT, I would struggle to place it anywhere in E Anglia.

As you say, technically optional but practically not, and yet what restrictions are placed on beef imports to the U.K.?

Who is compelling the abbatoirs to be RT assured ?

 

[The Ruminant]

Who is compelling the abbatoirs to be RT assured ?

No idea. I rarely send animals deadweight. I don’t think it was the abattoir per se, the implication was that none of them could put it into the food chain if it wasn’t RT certified.

I get most of my cattle killed and butchered for local sale. The buyers (members of the public) don’t care if I’m RT or not….!!

 

[The Ruminant]

I just wonder if there’s an equally big scandal on the livestock front as there obviously is on the arable side of things

 

[SilliamWhale]

I just wonder if there’s an equally big scandal on the livestock front as there obviously is on the arable side of things

Yes of course. The principal is the same, especially if imported produce is not scrutinised as much

 

[Grass And Grain]

The area of muddiness as I see it is that RT is technically still optional. Practically its not, but technically it may be.

The AIC (who buy the way are guarantors/ members ergo co owners of Scottish Quality Crops and Red Tractor) are compelling all their affiliated merchants to buy RT registered produce only in the UK. So on the surface it may look a virtuous circle but in reality its absolutely ripe for an inequitable market.

This is evidenced by the fact that Red Tractor are unanswerable at a practical level to all those who fund them (the farmers) and the those who theoretically represent a primary producer point of view (eg Andrew Blenkiron, Guy Smith) are paid by Red Tractor so its not a proper representation - evidenced by the fact that Guy struggles to engage properly and that Blenky has called any critics backstabbers (which we are not)

The next stage is we need to aggregate some of the merchants together who may see our point of view - they need us and we need them. Neither of us need Red Tractor. We need to find some principled and fair minded merchants who are prepared to recognise the daily hippocrasy of importing grain from abroad but are hands tied by the AIC for RT ie only able to buy grain from their "approved" sources in the UK. The NFU and AIC have little integrity on the matter but you would hope merchants who want a good working relationship with farmers might.

A few of the local merchants I deal with know its wrong but are not prepared to put head above the parapet yet

Some of your post wants sending in to FW letters to editor section.

It's a very good question, wheather AIC compelling feed mills to only purchase UK grain from their SQC (and RT) assured farmers, could have an effect on the free market? It's added cost for SQC assured farmers, who theoretically need to pass the cost to the mill, then more expensive animal feed, so more expensive meat on supermarket shelf.

More expensive for everyone down the grain chain, whilst SQC benefit from AIC's own rule. And the rule is imho indefensible when they say they're happy with the food safety and method of imports assurance.

We asked for a similar method of assurance for our UK grain and they said "no".

Plot thickens.

 

[Whitersheep]

Out of touch with this but are the levies compulsory?

Yes.They make us pay it then use it against those that are not assured by the sound of it.

 

[ploughman1963]

I've cancelled our NFU direct debit, I had a letter from them assuming I'd changed banks & would I like to send them my new details on a new DD form.
I ignored it.

Well done - but go one better and tell the local secretary why you have decided not to reoin. That information IS getting passed back so that the message is getting through.

 

[Flat 10]

However anti competitive behaviour examples:

• agreements which limit or control production, markets, technical development or investment, for example, setting quotas or levels of output;
• agreements which apply dissimilar conditions to similar transactions, placing other trading parties at a disadvantage.
• Examples of behaviour that could amount to an abuse by a business of its dominant position include:
  • imposing unfair trading terms, such as exclusivity

In the case of RT Grain, Jim Mosley has claimed imported grains are different because they are subject to " extensive testing before arrival". No one knows what those tests are so it may be a secret to Jim. Obviously I'm not a lawyer but the fact that AIC compels its members to buy RT grain makes the anti-competitive issue even more interesting

I'm not sure where it all stands with the Competition and Marketing Authorities. It could technically be a cartel ( limiting the supply or production of goods or services) but I'm not fully sure

It is anti competitive. I have it on good authority that the competition and markets commission “are aware” of the RT grain problem and aren’t especially happy. But the more people that report them the better. It did concern me when I engaged with my MP (who was very helpful) all crap that was passed on from DEFRA kept up the mantra that RT is optional, which is sadly a total fallacy……

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I just wonder if there’s an equally big scandal on the livestock front as there obviously is on the arable side of things

Our biggest overseas supplier is the Irish Republic. Does anyone know what assurance systems are in place there for beef and whether they are required of beef imported to here?

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Our biggest overseas supplier is the Irish Republic. Does anyone know what assurance systems are in place there for beef and whether they are required of beef imported to here?

And is it fully traceable?.... Could Larry guarantee that none of his Irish beef has roots elsewhere?