Farmers/Agriculture and Risk from a HS perspective.

[llamedos]

Following on from this survey https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...tudy-this-time-its-all-about-tractors.180086/ by @Drirwin

Do farmers have a strange perception of risk.
An instance used, would we park up a machine with a know serious fault, and yet not park ourselves up if we were not fit to carry out that task.

I know I can not lift 90 kg without mechanical help - yet, I would not think twice at trying my best to get a 90 kg tup off the ground were it couped/rigged. Or to turn it over should the need arise. Putting myself at risk.

what makes us feel we are invincible, without actually thinking about it.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

"Farmers" covers a very wide range of folk. I suspect we do have, on average, a much looser interpretation of acceptable risk than most today.

Available funds is part of it. We used to have a better record than construction in the U.K. but their act has been hugely improved. They were in a position, once enough pressure was applied, to accept that it would cost more but pass that cost on: Farmers don't generally have that luxury.

Many of our overseas competitors have an even worse record (just trawl YouTube for farm accidents).

 

[Drirwin]

I shall be watching this thread with interest and I am glad my research is generating further discussion!

 

[milkloss]

Following on from this survey https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...tudy-this-time-its-all-about-tractors.180086/ by @Drirwin

Do farmers have a strange perception of risk.
An instance used, would we park up a machine with a know serious fault, and yet not park ourselves up if we were not fit to carry out that task.

I know I can not lift 90 kg without mechanical help - yet, I would not think twice at trying my best to get a 90 kg tup off the ground were it couped/rigged. Or to turn it over should the need arise. Putting myself at risk.

what makes us feel we are invincible, without actually thinking about it.

This is another example of where the arable/livestock divide shows up. When you are the carer of livestock sometimes you have to get the job done especially when you don't have much labour around.

 

[Y Fan Wen]

There is a world of difference between picking 90kg up and rolling it over. I don't know how much a 200l barrel weighs but I would think nothing of rolling it into position. That's how they are made.

 

[TheTallGuy]

I think that part of it is down to farmers generally being self motivated and tend to just get on with the job without necessarily stopping to think before taking action, then there is also the lone working aspect - a person on their own is more likely to make a dangerous choice than if they are with other people.

I used to do a lot of H&S work and know all the pitfalls, but still find myself falling into bad habits.

 

[Goweresque]

"Farmers" covers a very wide range of folk. I suspect we do have, on average, a much looser interpretation of acceptable risk than most today.

Available funds is part of it. We used to have a better record than construction in the U.K. but their act has been hugely improved. They were in a position, once enough pressure was applied, to accept that it would cost more but pass that cost on: Farmers don't generally have that luxury.

Many of our overseas competitors have an even worse record (just trawl YouTube for farm accidents).

Most business sectors in the UK nowadays have the ability to pass on their costs to the consumer. Services for example cannot be directed imported, so it matters not if a foreign company owns the UK service provider, the cost of doing business here is the same and thus any extra H&S costs imposed are merely transferred to the consumer. Only the manufacturing and primary sectors are subject to foreign imports of physical goods, and the former in the UK now consists entirely of high end manufacturing that can control its own pricing and the latter has been largely driven out of the UK by cheap imports. Some business sectors are highly State regulated (water/energy for example) and this allows H&S costs to be included in the COP for those sectors, and thus passed on to consumers.

Farming is one of the last industries in the UK that is both a physical producer of commodities and in direct competition at world prices with other parts of the world that are far less regulated, and as such has no ability to pass on H&S costs to the consumer. Thus there will always be a pressure to cut corners in order to make a profit.

 

[unlacedgecko]

It's one of the reasons I invested in a combi clamp straight away.

I struggle to think of another industry which would allow workers to attempt to move/handle 60-90kg loads alone, without accounting for it to be a resisting live animal.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Most business sectors in the UK nowadays have the ability to pass on their costs to the consumer. Services for example cannot be directed imported, so it matters not if a foreign company owns the UK service provider, the cost of doing business here is the same and thus any extra H&S costs imposed are merely transferred to the consumer. Only the manufacturing and primary sectors are subject to foreign imports of physical goods, and the former in the UK now consists entirely of high end manufacturing that can control its own pricing and the latter has been largely driven out of the UK by cheap imports. Some business sectors are highly State regulated (water/energy for example) and this allows H&S costs to be included in the COP for those sectors, and thus passed on to consumers.

Farming is one of the last industries in the UK that is both a physical producer of commodities and in direct competition at world prices with other parts of the world that are far less regulated, and as such has no ability to pass on H&S costs to the consumer. Thus there will always be a pressure to cut corners in order to make a profit.

Actually, I had big arguments with clients I my last job over h&s. We were asked to open drain covers in the highway inn central London for survey but the client refused to pay the necessary rate for highway safety management and local authority permits. Their approach was that other contractors work that way so we would just lose work if we insisted. They would not share any of the fines for non compliance if caught either.

 

[Goweresque]

Actually, I had big arguments with clients I my last job over h&s. We were asked to open drain covers in the highway inn central London for survey but the client refused to pay the necessary rate for highway safety management and local authority permits. Their approach was that other contractors work that way so we would just lose work if we insisted. They would not share any of the fines for non compliance if caught either.

Did they pay or did they go elsewhere for the work then?

 

[-chris-]

You can never rule out risk and our perception of it changes with experience. Our individual personality has an influence as does our ability. I have a headstrong attitude to just get things done but I seem to balance the risk enough to avoid injury.

Some people can be overly worried/hesitant and panic themselves into danger.

My dad seems to attract injuries through clumsiness and my grandma has the ability to trip over a mole hill and fall down a worm hole.

 

[Goweresque]

You can never rule out risk and our perception of it changes with experience. Our individual personality has an influence as does our ability. I have a headstrong attitude to just get things done but I seem to balance the risk enough to avoid injury.

Some people can be overly worried/hesitant and panic themselves into danger.

My dad seems to attract injuries through clumsiness and my grandma has the ability to trip over a mole hill and fall down a worm hole.

There is a known medical syndrome called dyspraxia, which is a lack of the co-ordination function of the brain, basically being more clumsy than normal. Such a person is far more likely to have accidents than the average person.

 

[milkloss]

There is a known medical syndrome called dyspraxia, which is a lack or the co-ordination function of the brain, basically being more clumsy than normal. Such a person is far more likely to have accidents than the average person.

Does that mean I'm dyspraxylic?

Sorry, I do appreciate they are both serious issues for those that suffer them.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Did they pay or did they go elsewhere for the work then?

After a long fight our directors had to give in or go bust.

 

[7610 super q]

As mentioned above....COST.

I'd love to spend ££ on a cherry picker for building repairs instead of ladders.
Infact, I'd love to get someone else to do my building repairs.....
i'd love to spend more money on mechanisation.
I'd love to spend money on the latest equipment......

It's not that I've got a cavalier attitude to safety, I just don't have much spare cash....
How can you have 21st Century H & S, when you are receiving 17th century prices ?

 

[TheTallGuy]

As mentioned above....COST.

I'd love to spend ££ on a cherry picker for building repairs instead of ladders.
Infact, I'd love to get someone else to do my building repairs.....
i'd love to spend more money on mechanisation.
I'd love to spend money on the latest equipment......

It's not that I've got a cavalier attitude to safety, I just don't have much spare cash....
How can you have 21st Century H & S, when you are receiving 17th century prices ?

A safe system of work doesn't have to cost money - just taking reasonable steps to mitigate the risks & actually thinking about a task before jumping straight in is what makes the biggest difference.

 

[Goweresque]

A safe system of work doesn't have to cost money - just taking reasonable steps to mitigate the risks & actually thinking about a task before jumping straight in is what makes the biggest difference.

But money makes a huge difference.

Why are farmers using machinery that is old and way passed its best? Why are they pushing themselves so hard, working all hours of the day? Because they can't afford new stuff due to the prices they receive for their produce. Nor can they afford contractors to come in and do work for them, so end up doing it themselves, often with old kit.

Does Costain build its roads and railways with 30 year old excavators? Do Tesco sell their wares in stores that haven't been refurbished for 50 years? Does Thames Water buy second hand pipes to repair its water network? Of course not - their profit levels allow them to ensure that the machinery and materials used are top notch and all relevant H&S rules are followed. Not only that they make enough profit on top to pay all the employees good wages and pay the shareholders dividends as well.

Tesco last year made over £1bn in profit, a return on capital employed of about 6%. If a 300 acre owner occupier farmer had a similar return on his capital his profit level would be pushing £200k.

I think we can all agree H&S might be a bit better on farms if they were making that sort of money.

 

[llamedos]

There is a world of difference between picking 90kg up and rolling it over. I don't know how much a 200l barrel weighs but I would think nothing of rolling it into position. That's how they are made.

Yes, perhaps a poor example, but I am sure you know what i was getting at.

Ok another.

A utv - a Gator, will go pretty much anywhere, side rollover protection, feel nice and safe, so fail to ever use seatbelts, those doors if you have them are pretty crappy, and in a side roll will burst off or fall open, person inside is then crushed by their own safety protection as they are flung out. But sod the seatbelts, because on the hill chasing ewes we have to jump out quite quickly sometimes....

A wagon driver has to work within very strict guidelines for rest periods, a tractors driver is immune from all this he/she has to get that crop in, so they cut all day, collect all night, then jump in the car and take their kids to school, but that is different - right ..

 

[Brisel]

Yes, perhaps a poor example, but I am sure you know what i was getting at.

Ok another.

A utv - a Gator, will go pretty much anywhere, side rollover protection, feel nice and safe, so fail to ever use seatbelts, those doors if you have them are pretty crappy, and in a side roll will burst off or fall open, person inside is then crushed by their own safety protection as they are flung out. But sod the seatbelts, because on the hill chasing ewes we have to jump out quite quickly sometimes....

A wagon driver has to work within very strict guidelines for rest periods, a tractors driver is immune from all this he/she has to get that crop in, so they cut all day, collect all night, then jump in the car and take their kids to school, but that is different - right ..

I agree about the UTVs. I don't think I've ever seen a seatbelt worn - everyone goes on about quad bikes being more dangerous but I know which I'd choose if I had to have one of the two parked on top of me.

 

[phillipe]

There is a world of difference between picking 90kg up and rolling it over. I don't know how much a 200l barrel weighs but I would think nothing of rolling it into position. That's how they are made.

200 kg