Farmers who dont castrate with rings, what are your thoughts?

Tim W

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Wiltshire
Castrated and tailed lambs can definitely have a better life experience by reducing fighting, fly strike and unwanted pregnancies. It is also very sustainable.
Reduced fighting ---probably
Fly strike is more down to dirty /woolly tails than tail length ---there is research from Merinos showing that the longer the tail the less strike
Unwanted pregnancies---managed by better management?

I'm not against castration/tail docking as i think they are useful tools to have but i am for increasing welfare (if possible) and re-examining practices (tradition plays a large part in both these practices)
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
I can only imagine you are female if you are giving that reply.
The slightest tap of testes can be extremely painful but grabbing the scrotum without touching them is not.
I'm not sure that"I imagine squeezing testicles off, millimetre by millimetre would reach that threshold in humans? " is a very apt description for anyone with medical knowledge. As neilo accurately said, " the ring constricts the blood flow above the testicles, as well as crushing the nerves and the tubes to the testicles."

As you said "The logic behind the argument that pain exists in castration is based on the fact the nerves in a newborn and 8 day old lamb are almost identical, there's no anatomical reason to think they'd respond differently ." I believe the factors affecting the lambs experience is quite obviously size. The smaller the tail and scrotum, the less pressure is being exerted.
I still want to distinguish what lambs experience as discomfort or irritation rather then pain. This also seems to be very temporary and akin to the first time a pet is adorned with a coat/cover or one of the veterinary cones around the neck. The behaviour is similar in a wtf is going on, get it off, kind of way.
I think injecting an anaesthetic and potential side effects could be more traumatic for the lamb than having a ring administered.
Castrated and tailed lambs can definitely have a better life experience by reducing fighting, fly strike and unwanted pregnancies. It is also very sustainable. The environmental impact of the process is negligible with the advantage of the potential reduction in use of chemicals for fly treatments and removal of the need for veterinary interventions at a later date.
Thank you for your response. Primarily, the issue with rings is that they do not apply enough pressure in one go to crush the nerve immediately, unlike the burdizzo. This is where the mm by mm comes in- the nerve is crushed quite slowly until the ring tightens enough for it to 'die' (i.e. after about 2 hours or so)- it has to go through all the tissue first as the nerve lies in the centre. I apologise for the laymans terms, I just wanted to avoid medical jargon for simplicity as I believe if you cant explain yourself in simple terms you don't understand the concept well enough. The issue here is the time it takes for the 'tubes and nerves' to be crushed. It is not immediate. Therefore, where you say less pressure is being exerted on a smaller scrotum, that does not necessarily mean there is less pain, and possibly the contrary as it may take even longer for the nerve to be crushed. However, there will be less cells to die by necrosis, which means there will be fewer pain signals in that regard. With regard to your comment about braille, it is important to know that touch receptors and pain receptors are not the same, meaning that our hands may be able to be sensitive to touch but not so much to pain compared to the testicles. I appreciate your comment on the animals reaction, it is difficult to determine what exactly a 'pain' behaviour is, and I'm no behaviouralist. I however do have faith in the shepherds and professors who have observed and studied this extensively. I agree that the variability in how animals respond is a reason for this topic to be so controversial among farmers and vets.
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Humans use 274 micro grams of antibiotics per kg of live weight in the UK. Livestock use less than 100 micro grams of antibiotics per kg of body weight in the UK. I think humans cause our own problems, stop blaming livestock, it’s bad enough that vegans try to blame all disease, climate change and pollution on livestock farming without trying to blame antibiotics resistance as well, it’s lazy, bully boy tactics
In the UK I agree antibiotics are tightly regulated, and I in no way meant to blame farmers or farming in general. However, methods used in the US (overly intensive agriculture and a 'race to the bottom' market) do mean that over 70% of their antibiotics are used on livestock, so it's more of a bigger picture issue than blaming UK farmers per se. That being said, it's the consumers who drive that market, and it should not be the sole responsibility of farmers to solve this issue. People just need to pay more for better practice. I appreciate your frustration however so thank you for raising that.
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Reduced fighting ---probably
Fly strike is more down to dirty /woolly tails than tail length ---there is research from Merinos showing that the longer the tail the less strike
Unwanted pregnancies---managed by better management?

I'm not against castration/tail docking as i think they are useful tools to have but i am for increasing welfare (if possible) and re-examining practices (tradition plays a large part in both these practices)
Thanks for mentioning tradition, its very interesting you do so as the legislation which requires castration in young animals <7 days was introduced in 1954 based on very little evidence. Despite evidence since to prove neonatal animals do experience more pain than we thought, this legislation remains unchanged today. Interestingly, in docked piglets the literature supports the premise that experiencing pain at such a young age might actually make the animal more susceptible to pain later in life, and has an impact on not only the animals genes, but that of it's offspring and even their offspring (this is called epigenetics). However, whether this applies to lambs has yet to be shown. And thank you for mentioning cleanliness as well- there is in fact little data to support the idea that docking reduces flystrike but the individual experience of farmers who dock may override this.
 
To be honest I can see a day when no antibiotics in farm animals are permitted and castration, tail docking and the like are all banned in all but name. The stimulus for change will probably come from buyers, processors and retailers who are seeking to segment the market and corner a piece of the retail arena for themselves as best they can. I believe it is possible beef and pork and probably poultry will further diversify in their market offerings. Intensive pigs and poultry may well become a thing of the past too.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Reduced fighting ---probably
Fly strike is more down to dirty /woolly tails than tail length ---there is research from Merinos showing that the longer the tail the less strike
Unwanted pregnancies---managed by better management?

I'm not against castration/tail docking as i think they are useful tools to have but i am for increasing welfare (if possible) and re-examining practices (tradition plays a large part in both these practices)
Traditionally, male lambs are made into cryptorchids down here, only the scrotum is banded off which is a good compromise in fast finishing lambs IMO. Less discomfort (judging by the time spent rolling, they still won't talk) and the added growth rate induced by a little testosterone.

And, it costs exactly the same amount
 

CollCrofter

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Scotland
Docking 100% reduces the chance of flystrike. No arguments. As for castrating, the lambs don't seem one bit bothered when done at the right age and applied correctly. Sprint away back to Mum for a sook and carry on as normal. I'm surprised they allowed what is clearly a fishing post to get to 5 pages tbh...
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Docking 100% reduces the chance of flystrike. No arguments. As for castrating, the lambs don't seem one bit bothered when done at the right age and applied correctly. Sprint away back to Mum for a sook and carry on as normal. I'm surprised they allowed what is clearly a fishing post to get to 5 pages tbh...
So, assuming you're a shepherd, you do not think you've observed any kicking/licking of scrotal area/rolling/lying/increased breathing/ increased heart rate in lambs post castration? Thanks for replying!
 

CollCrofter

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Scotland
My breathing increases after trying to catch them, which causes my heart rate to go up which means I go and have quick lay down. And who wouldn't do number 2 if we could...

I'll happily film a couple for you next spring. I disagree with many practices and I despise factory farms with a passion. But, when done correctly I will bat for banding and docking all day long.
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
My breathing increases after trying to catch them, which causes my heart rate to go up which means I go and have quick lay down. And who wouldn't do number 2 if we could...

I'll happily film a couple for you next spring. I disagree with many practices and I despise factory farms with a passion. But, when done correctly I will bat for banding and docking all day long.
I have lambed for a few years, I am interested in your personal observations as many farmers seem to hold different views. However, any and all data is welcome so thank you very much!
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
My breathing increases after trying to catch them, which causes my heart rate to go up which means I go and have quick lay down. And who wouldn't do number 2 if we could...

I'll happily film a couple for you next spring. I disagree with many practices and I despise factory farms with a passion. But, when done correctly I will bat for banding and docking all day long.
This may be of interest, just to read about opposing views on the matter. However, it's a tricky topic and behaviour is no exact science. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0034528898902521
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Reduced fighting ---probably
Fly strike is more down to dirty /woolly tails than tail length ---there is research from Merinos showing that the longer the tail the less strike
Unwanted pregnancies---managed by better management?

I'm not against castration/tail docking as i think they are useful tools to have but i am for increasing welfare (if possible) and re-examining practices (tradition plays a large part in both these practices)

It's good to review any practice and increase welfare.
In this case I'm not so sure it's 'tradition' as much as a tried and tested good practice.

There will be many who may find it unnecessary so don't do it. Because an early lambing shedding sheep wouldn't need ringing doesn't mean it's not essential for someone else.
I'm not sure research on an Australian Merino would apply to a suffolk in Devon.

@wurzelfan - The manner anything/ anybody experiences sensation is as much to do with interpretation of the mind so extremely difficult to evaluate. The reason for sensation is the body telling the mind......'somethings going on here, is that ok?'
We only notice changes in sensation and it would be fair to assume animals would be the same.
I believe lambs notice the sensation of the ring and the initial reaction is to try and remove it, the same as if you placed a hat on their head. It is being accustomed to the sensation or being otherwise distracted that returns the lamb to its completely normal behaviour rather than cessation of working nerves or blood supply.
Do you know why the castration legislation was brought in?

I'm wondering if it was to encourage responsible castration rather than immediate welfare reasons. It used to be a nightmare if you had neighbours with lots of poor uncastrated animals roaming about.
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
It's good to review any practice and increase welfare.
In this case I'm not so sure it's 'tradition' as much as a tried and tested good practice.

There will be many who may find it unnecessary so don't do it. Because an early lambing shedding sheep wouldn't need ringing doesn't mean it's not essential for someone else.
I'm not sure research on an Australian Merino would apply to a suffolk in Devon.

@wurzelfan - The manner anything/ anybody experiences sensation is as much to do with interpretation of the mind so extremely difficult to evaluate. The reason for sensation is the body telling the mind......'somethings going on here, is that ok?'
We only notice changes in sensation and it would be fair to assume animals would be the same.
I believe lambs notice the sensation of the ring and the initial reaction is to try and remove it, the same as if you placed a hat on their head. It is being accustomed to the sensation or being otherwise distracted that returns the lamb to its completely normal behaviour rather than cessation of working nerves or blood supply.
Do you know why the castration legislation was brought in?

I'm wondering if it was to encourage responsible castration rather than immediate welfare reasons. It used to be a nightmare if you had neighbours with lots of poor uncastrated animals roaming about.
What's cool about anatomy is that a lot of sensation and pain interpretation happens well before the brain. First off you have mechano receptors which interpret the shape,size,texture of something. Then you have nocireceptors, which detect painful stimuli. You also have thermoreceptors for temperature perception. These receptors then send messages up nerve fibers, but these fibers may take very different pathways up the spine and go to different parts of the brain at varying speeds- so if you lean on the hob you might detect pain before you realise your hand is hot. This is because our pathways and parts of our brains which detect pain developped before some of our other pathways, because pain is so fundamental to survival that it was needed even when we were at the very start of evolution, whereas ability to feel and manipulate (e.g. to use tools) came a bit later. Therefore, an animal's response to 'get this off me' might be more to do with pain than just 'feeling' something foreign on their skin. Also, some animals such as dogs may overreact to something we'd consider mild, in the same way some lambs won't bat an eye while their blood cortisol levels (another way of measuring pain) go through the roof. Does that make sense?

As for the legislation, at the time tere was a belief that neonates felt less pain, which has since been shown to be at best a questionable conclusion. Your reasoning would also make a lot of sense and probably is the reason it hasn't changed, despite new evidence to oppose it. Ultimately, convenience and ease of management override welfare in this scenario, at least until consumers start paying more for the product.
 

Tim W

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Wiltshire
There will be many who may find it unnecessary so don't do it. Because an early lambing shedding sheep wouldn't need ringing doesn't mean it's not essential for someone else.
I'm not sure research on an Australian Merino would apply to a suffolk in Devon.

We have started phasing in the non docking of purebred Charollais & Texel lambs too ---- those docked with dirty back ends will get strike whilst those undocked with clean tails don't get struck
I would argue that the Suffolk in Devon will get strike for the same reasons ---dirty/sweaty wool , a long tail will give it some swatting power to drive flies away....probably one of the reasons that sheep evolved with tails?
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
What's cool about anatomy is that a lot of sensation and pain interpretation happens well before the brain. First off you have mechano receptors which interpret the shape,size,texture of something. Then you have nocireceptors, which detect painful stimuli. You also have thermoreceptors for temperature perception. These receptors then send messages up nerve fibers, but these fibers may take very different pathways up the spine and go to different parts of the brain at varying speeds- so if you lean on the hob you might detect pain before you realise your hand is hot. This is because our pathways and parts of our brains which detect pain developped before some of our other pathways, because pain is so fundamental to survival that it was needed even when we were at the very start of evolution, whereas ability to feel and manipulate (e.g. to use tools) came a bit later. Therefore, an animal's response to 'get this off me' might be more to do with pain than just 'feeling' something foreign on their skin. Also, some animals such as dogs may overreact to something we'd consider mild, in the same way some lambs won't bat an eye while their blood cortisol levels (another way of measuring pain) go through the roof. Does that make sense?

As for the legislation, at the time tere was a belief that neonates felt less pain, which has since been shown to be at best a questionable conclusion. Your reasoning would also make a lot of sense and probably is the reason it hasn't changed, despite new evidence to oppose it. Ultimately, convenience and ease of management override welfare in this scenario, at least until consumers start paying more for the product.

The anatomy's interpretation of sensation before the brain will be virtually instantaneous.
It is then for the brain to assimilate all the other information to formulate a response.
Extreme pain results in immediate action which will often be a movement to reduce the pain.
Sensations are constantly being sensed and ignored. You are probably sitting down reading this and oblivious to the feeling of you buttocks being pressed against the chair until I've pointed it out [*immediate butt shuffle as a result].
Tickling has exactly the same reaction profile as extreme pain. It is a horrible pleasure.
Ultimately it all comes down to triage.
How much is the suffering
How long will the suffering last
What is the potential benefit.

If you are convinced there is no suffering, the other 2 points are superflous.
Is a very minor discomfort for 30 minutes, better or worse than a very brief pain?
If there is no benefit, don't risk any suffering.

I think there is no doubt that wool bearing breeding stock should be tailed. Many years of benefit and the need to be able to easily see any lambing problems makes it a no brainer.
Lambs that will be finished and sold before May will probably not need any rings.
 

primmiemoo

Member
Location
Devon
Going back to cortisol levels, I'm sure I read somewhere that they are linked to the flight instinct, and that there is a combination of hormones that suppress perception of pain extremely effectively in flight situations.

In situations where a lamb or calf is ringed, those natural pain blockers work.
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Going back to cortisol levels, I'm sure I read somewhere that they are linked to the flight instinct, and that there is a combination of hormones that suppress perception of pain extremely effectively in flight situations.

In situations where a lamb or calf is ringed, those natural pain blockers work.
Hormones are extremely complicated. Any number of hormones can do a tonne of different things. Adrenaline is the main flight fight man, and often can suppress pain, for clear evolutionary advantages. Cortisol is the hormone we associate with the body freaking out, and is released more slowly- be that low level stress from being too hot for example, or high levels when receiving a lot of pain stimuli. We can also measure brain activity in parts of the brain where pain is processed, but this is expensive and who wants to pay money to show that we should be spending more money on pain relief? It has been shown that handling lambs alone can increase their cortisol levels, however handling them + castrating tended to increase that concentration by about 100 times more than handling alone.
 

wurzelfan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Ring piercing in extraordinary places, seems to be quite popular amongst certain parts of the community, in the same way that tattoos are...
Do you believe a small % of the population choosing to mutilate their own testicles is a valid reason for castrating lambs? I do take your point though, people are odd.
 

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