Farmers who dont castrate with rings, what are your thoughts?

[wurzelfan]

The anatomy's interpretation of sensation before the brain will be virtually instantaneous.
It is then for the brain to assimilate all the other information to formulate a response.
Extreme pain results in immediate action which will often be a movement to reduce the pain.
Sensations are constantly being sensed and ignored. You are probably sitting down reading this and oblivious to the feeling of you buttocks being pressed against the chair until I've pointed it out [*immediate butt shuffle as a result].
Tickling has exactly the same reaction profile as extreme pain. It is a horrible pleasure.
Ultimately it all comes down to triage.
How much is the suffering
How long will the suffering last
What is the potential benefit.

If you are convinced there is no suffering, the other 2 points are superflous.
Is a very minor discomfort for 30 minutes, better or worse than a very brief pain?
If there is no benefit, don't risk any suffering.

I think there is no doubt that wool bearing breeding stock should be tailed. Many years of benefit and the need to be able to easily see any lambing problems makes it a no brainer.
Lambs that will be finished and sold before May will probably not need any rings.

Ok so I think your point here is that a lamb could react the same way to being in intense pain (by moving away) as it would react to low pain stimuli, and so its hard to tell if they're really in pain or just a bit bothered? By this logic, you technically can't determine they're pain free either as it could be one or the other. One way to show if this is the case is to inflict painful stimuli on some lambs and merely handle others as a control. They would then supposedly show the same 'escape' response if you put say a balloon over their testicles or just handled them, as with using a rubber ring. A study like this was done (see links) and the lambs that were only handled showed very different behaviour to that of the castrated lambs (this was based on shepherd observations by the way, not the researchers, to ensure they didn't 'see what they were looking for'). Heart rate stayed high for a number of hours in some lambs, blood cortisol was high and posture changed. What do you think about this ? Can I ask if you have ever noted lambs looking sleepy/sleeping in the hours after castration?

 

[wurzelfan]

But they do bat an eye. Clench the jaw, look into the middle distance, wrinkle their nose etc - just no one notices

Are these behaviours you would associate with pain?

 

[MRT]

Are these behaviours you would associate with pain?

Next time you run ewes through a gateway look at the face of the lame one at the back, closely

 

[steveR]

Do you believe a small % of the population choosing to mutilate their own testicles is a valid reason for castrating lambs? I do take your point though, people are odd.

Hardly, it was more linking to perceptions of "pain" that was being discussed a wee bit earlier

 

[wurzelfan]

Next time you run ewes through a gateway look at the face of the lame one at the back, closely

This is really helpful! to be honest due to the variation in feedback I've had I wasnt sure if you were taking the mic. Some contributors to this thread seem very aware of small variations in behaviours and some say that the lamb is absolutely fine after docking and they observe no change whatsoever. Do you think many farmers you know would agree with you on what you would consider a pain behaviour in this case? Interestingly these behaviours were not on the listed pain associated behaviours in the study, potentially due to the potential for shepherds to react in the same way as some contributors have reacted on this thread. Possibly also because they're difficult to measure and require close observation, which during a busy lambing season can be tricky. Thanks so much !

 

[MRT]

This is really helpful! to be honest due to the variation in feedback I've had I wasnt sure if you were taking the mic. Some contributors to this thread seem very aware of small variations in behaviours and some say that the lamb is absolutely fine after docking and they observe no change whatsoever. Do you think many farmers you know would agree with you on what you would consider a pain behaviour in this case? Interestingly these behaviours were not on the listed pain associated behaviours in the study, potentially due to the potential for shepherds to react in the same way as some contributors have reacted on this thread. Possibly also because they're difficult to measure and require close observation, which during a busy lambing season can be tricky. Thanks so much !

Think of the expression of someone sucking on an exceptionally sour sweet that caused them to both pull the face and lose interest in keeping up with the crowd. No I'm not taking the p iss, expressions are easier to see in pedigree sheep as they all look the same to some degree

 

[czechmate]

If you’re not a vegan, thrn apologies.
We castrates bulls because we’re heartless farmers who like to cause maximum pain and suffering to animals whilst also making money out of animals that are in pain and in awful conditions. See the contradiction there?
we castrate then to stop them killing each other and us and to stop them shagging their sisters at 6 months old!
Rings don’t hurt below 3 months of age. An animal in pain, like a lame cow, will go backwards. We wouldn’t do it if it caused them pain, as they would go backwards and we would loose money

I often wonder why bulls get castrated
Especially back in circa 84 when you then put hormones back in their ears
Anyway, we don’t castrate our bulls, grow them all until they are fat for the abattoir (except for a few lucky ones that get sold for breeding) and don’t have any of the problems you talk of
That added bonus being they must surely grow faster? Why else put the hormone back (when you were allowed to)

 

[Dairyfarmerswife]

A bit late adding to the debate, we are dairy and I have just begun castrating male beef calves with a rubber ring. The reason for this, is that two years ago we were shut down with TB before calving (300 cow spring calving herd) and the beef calves weren't saleable when we were under restriction. On going clear, when selling privately, most, if not all, buyers, preferred them to be castrated, and at 4-6 months old the best option was having the vet to cut them - burdizzo-ing 80 odd bull calves did not seem very appealing! The remainder (uncut) were kept over winter, and it was difficult keeping them apart from the heifers, we were lucky not to have an unwanted pregnancy!

Reluctantly, this year, I started using rubber rings. My previous experience of this was lambs, who always looked very sorry for themselves after being done, lying down, kicking, etc. I'm amazed that I can see no ill effects, either immediately or in the following days. I ring them when I tag them, so 2-3 days old at the latest. I can only assume that the anatomy is such in a calf vs lamb, that everything being compressed is bigger - flesh, cord, nerves etc, and therefore the process happens more quickly.

 

[davieh3350]

In Iceland you need a vet present when you castrate bulls and lambs.
bulls don’t get out of sheds as farmers don’t want to pay the vets fee and they’re too much hassle outside with their nuts.

 

[Agrivator]

I often wonder why bulls get castrated
Especially back in circa 84 when you then put hormones back in their ears
Anyway, we don’t castrate our bulls, grow them all until they are fat for the abattoir (except for a few lucky ones that get sold for breeding) and don’t have any of the problems you talk of
That added bonus being they must surely grow faster? Why else put the hormone back (when you were allowed to)

The greater efficiency of bulls versus steers doesn't go anywhere near compensating for the additional danger bulls pose to the staff looking after them.
And anyone who has witnessed the misery of the poor beast continually being ridden by the rest, will accept any small discomfort associated with early castration by rubber rings.

 

[czechmate]

The greater efficiency of bulls versus steers doesn't go anywhere near compensating for the additional danger bulls pose to the staff looking after them.
And anyone who has witnessed the misery of the poor beast continually being ridden by the rest, will accept any small discomfort associated with early castration by rubber rings.

I must admit, my good friend and next door neighbour at the time, 1984, found it quite bizarre that most of his competitors put the hormones back in
But then that’s farming for you.

Can’t say as I see the problems you talk of, we sent one within a group off a couple of weeks back that had a carcass of 574 kg (trade very slow these days so they are staying longer than they should) and I was certainly glad he didn’t have “an attitude”

 

[wurzelfan]

A bit late adding to the debate, we are dairy and I have just begun castrating male beef calves with a rubber ring. The reason for this, is that two years ago we were shut down with TB before calving (300 cow spring calving herd) and the beef calves weren't saleable when we were under restriction. On going clear, when selling privately, most, if not all, buyers, preferred them to be castrated, and at 4-6 months old the best option was having the vet to cut them - burdizzo-ing 80 odd bull calves did not seem very appealing! The remainder (uncut) were kept over winter, and it was difficult keeping them apart from the heifers, we were lucky not to have an unwanted pregnancy!

Reluctantly, this year, I started using rubber rings. My previous experience of this was lambs, who always looked very sorry for themselves after being done, lying down, kicking, etc. I'm amazed that I can see no ill effects, either immediately or in the following days. I ring them when I tag them, so 2-3 days old at the latest. I can only assume that the anatomy is such in a calf vs lamb, that everything being compressed is bigger - flesh, cord, nerves etc, and therefore the process happens more quickly.

Thank you for this! Do you know why the markets don't like bulls? I can only assume theres some kind of taint issue?

 

[primmiemoo]

Fwiw, when I was rearing calves, I did not want older bull calves because they could not be ringed. They had to be either burdizzo'd or cut. It was a big handling problem for me, and having the vet in was extra cost.
A strong steer, or a stag was a potential danger as he grew, too - whether to his keeper, or his group.
Far better to buy male calves either already ringed, or of an age where they could be ringed.

I've been thinking about matters raised in this thread. There's short-term pain, and there's chronic pain.
Rings cause short-term pain (obviously measurable) that ceases (obviously measurable). Chronic pain of tooth, foot or joint trouble is not fully addressed, imv. We have Metacam, but, afaik, aren't permitted to use longer-term pain relief that is available for pet animals. Maybe that's an avenue for research? Development of effective relief that does not render food animals unfit for consumption. Casualties would be given attention as well, without waste.

 

[Dairyfarmerswife]

Thank you for this! Do you know why the markets don't like bulls? I can only assume theres some kind of taint issue?

I think it's management, and perhaps finishing time? I remember a buyer telling me that there was a premium for finishing bulls in a certain time, or perhaps a penalty for bulls over that age. For me, it's management if I end up having to keep them - much simpler to run them with the beef heifers than run two mobs.

 

[Highland Mule]

And anyone who has witnessed the misery of the poor beast continually being ridden by the rest, will accept any small discomfort associated with early castration by rubber rings.

 

[cyffylog]

Always do all bull calves as soon as possible, max 2nd day, sometimes if testicles can be felt, at 1st day. (cant catch calves any older!) Doesnt seem to bother calves at all, unlike lambs, which I always do on the 2nd day, and they shout and struggle for about 15 min. but not sure if its the castration or docking as the females shout and struggle also.

Dafydd WW

 

[andybk]

We have started phasing in the non docking of purebred Charollais & Texel lambs too ---- those docked with dirty back ends will get strike whilst those undocked with clean tails don't get struck
I would argue that the Suffolk in Devon will get strike for the same reasons ---dirty/sweaty wool , a long tail will give it some swatting power to drive flies away....probably one of the reasons that sheep evolved with tails?

cant agree with that , zwartbles never get docked , yet are first to get strike with any wool type , and nothing to do with dirty tails .

 

[Tim W]

cant agree with that , zwartbles never get docked , yet are first to get strike with any wool type , and nothing to do with dirty tails .

Why don't you dock the Zwarts ?

 

[andybk]

Why don't you dock the Zwarts ?

its a breed thing , they should be bred with hair (short wool ) covered tails for cleanliness , but that doesnt happen , Black longish wool seems to attract the flies anyway , they need to be first shorn

 

[Tim W]

its a breed thing , they should be bred with hair (short wool ) covered tails for cleanliness , but that doesnt happen , Black longish wool seems to attract the flies anyway , they need to be first shorn

Does black wool attract files?
Would short black tails be worse for strike than long black tails ?