Farming without subsidies

Milk 'was' of national importance up to the 70s, the national diet and pay was so poor. Today, obesity is the problem.
Have a read of 'The Far Country' by Nevil Shute to see the state of the country in 1952.

Again, I do not see why I, nor any other consumer or tax payer, should concern themselves with historical facts of this nature. The 70s was now basically 50 years ago. The 50s were now 70 years ago: it is not relevant. So the government had a milk for schools program, great.

I still see no valid argument for a government body solely existing to regulate the price of milk in any way. The marketplace works fine. Some farmers can make a good profit, some make a profit but have years or periods of low returns (much like the cycles endured by many different businesses, I might add) others can't make it pay no matter what they do. Put simply that is and was always the case, that is market forces for you, tough canoodles: welcome to the real world and the commercial realities of being in business today.

I am glad someone brought Thatcher up, I do like to see the closet socialists rear their heads even if they cannot bring themselves to admit it. So you want a government subsidy just for existing, a guaranteed price of milk at the farm gate: what else would you like, free tax payer funded slippers as well? Wake up.
 

turbo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
lincs
Again, I do not see why I, nor any other consumer or tax payer, should concern themselves with historical facts of this nature. The 70s was now basically 50 years ago. The 50s were now 70 years ago: it is not relevant. So the government had a milk for schools program, great.

I still see no valid argument for a government body solely existing to regulate the price of milk in any way. The marketplace works fine. Some farmers can make a good profit, some make a profit but have years or periods of low returns (much like the cycles endured by many different businesses, I might add) others can't make it pay no matter what they do. Put simply that is and was always the case, that is market forces for you, tough canoodles: welcome to the real world and the commercial realities of being in business today.

I am glad someone brought Thatcher up, I do like to see the closet socialists rear their heads even if they cannot bring themselves to admit it. So you want a government subsidy just for existing, a guaranteed price of milk at the farm gate: what else would you like, free tax payer funded slippers as well? Wake up.
If we follow your way of thinking surely the state shouldn’t be involved with anything? No nhs,schools public transport or any other industry that gets tax payers money to provide a service,private money can do it all
 
If we follow your way of thinking surely the state shouldn’t be involved with anything? No nhs,schools public transport or any other industry that gets tax payers money to provide a service,private money can do it all

Would you expect private investors to invest in enterprises that are never designed to make a profit? I don't think I would part with my savings for such a thing.
 

turbo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
lincs
Errr, they don't charge for their services? How can schools or the NHS ever make a profit, or even breakeven, if they are not billing people for the services they provide?
Probably they should.if I take out private medical insurance do I get a refund if I have to have an operation?
 
Probably they should.if I take out private medical insurance do I get a refund if I have to have an operation?

I have private medical insurance. Some private medical insurers may refund you if you have a procedure carried out on the NHS: the NHS does not pay you for having treatment elsewhere.

Believe me mind, I have met several people who were plenty wealthy enough to afford private medical treatment but the world of private medicine did not want to carry out their procedures. Of course private consultants are more than happy to have you sit in their office and being assessed, but once patients reach a certain again or have other complications with their health, they just don't want to do it- they do not have the facilities to rehabilitate just anyone- particularly the elderly- after what we would consider routine procedures. Private medical insurance or healthcare is thus not a silver bullet solution as you might believe, the limitations of our cover, for example, are too numerous to even begin to describe here.

If you are an otherwise healthy 42 year old man who breaks his leg skiing- private medicine will sort that without any fuss. No sweat. But if you are a 65 year old man who has already had a stent or two and who now needs a hip replacement don't be surprised if private medicine doesn't want to know. They don't like high-risk patients and they don't like the elderly, you will be directed to the NHS because the NHS has provision for elderly patients and places for them to stay if rehabilitation or recovery is prolonged. I've met several individuals during my time with the NHS who had exactly that experience.
 
Again, I do not see why I, nor any other consumer or tax payer, should concern themselves with historical facts of this nature. The 70s was now basically 50 years ago. The 50s were now 70 years ago: it is not relevant. So the government had a milk for schools program, great.

I still see no valid argument for a government body solely existing to regulate the price of milk in any way. The marketplace works fine. Some farmers can make a good profit, some make a profit but have years or periods of low returns (much like the cycles endured by many different businesses, I might add) others can't make it pay no matter what they do. Put simply that is and was always the case, that is market forces for you, tough canoodles: welcome to the real world and the commercial realities of being in business today.

I am glad someone brought Thatcher up, I do like to see the closet socialists rear their heads even if they cannot bring themselves to admit it. So you want a government subsidy just for existing, a guaranteed price of milk at the farm gate: what else would you like, free tax payer funded slippers as well? Wake up.
So what about the other countries that either directly or indirectly subsidise agriculture then send their produce here? They distort the market/s. Perhaps there should be a global ban on any income given to all farmers, farming companies, landowners so we can all rely on the markets and a level playing field. I would be quite happy with that, but if the prices go up for any reason there should be no intervention to cap or restrict the prices. As this is not then true market forces........
 

turbo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
lincs
I have private medical insurance. Some private medical insurers may refund you if you have a procedure carried out on the NHS: the NHS does not pay you for having treatment elsewhere.

Believe me mind, I have met several people who were plenty wealthy enough to afford private medical treatment but the world of private medicine did not want to carry out their procedures. Of course private consultants are more than happy to have you sit in their office and being assessed, but once patients reach a certain again or have other complications with their health, they just don't want to do it- they do not have the facilities to rehabilitate just anyone- particularly the elderly- after what we would consider routine procedures. Private medical insurance or healthcare is thus not a silver bullet solution as you might believe, the limitations of our cover, for example, are too numerous to even begin to describe here.

If you are an otherwise healthy 42 year old man who breaks his leg skiing- private medicine will sort that without any fuss. No sweat. But if you are a 65 year old man who has already had a stent or two and who now needs a hip replacement don't be surprised if private medicine doesn't want to know. They don't like high-risk patients and they don't like the elderly, you will be directed to the NHS because the NHS has provision for elderly patients and places for them to stay if rehabilitation or recovery is prolonged. I've met several individuals during my time with the NHS who had exactly that experience.
That’s not free market thinking is it,so as long as you keep getting your subsidy for working in the nhs nothing else matters,glad we are clear on that
 

Pond digger

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
East Yorkshire
Again, I do not see why I, nor any other consumer or tax payer, should concern themselves with historical facts of this nature. The 70s was now basically 50 years ago. The 50s were now 70 years ago: it is not relevant. So the government had a milk for schools program, great.

I still see no valid argument for a government body solely existing to regulate the price of milk in any way. The marketplace works fine. Some farmers can make a good profit, some make a profit but have years or periods of low returns (much like the cycles endured by many different businesses, I might add) others can't make it pay no matter what they do. Put simply that is and was always the case, that is market forces for you, tough canoodles: welcome to the real world and the commercial realities of being in business today.

I am glad someone brought Thatcher up, I do like to see the closet socialists rear their heads even if they cannot bring themselves to admit it. So you want a government subsidy just for existing, a guaranteed price of milk at the farm gate: what else would you like, free tax payer funded slippers as well? Wake up.

Leaving everything to market forces is all well and good, but in a global market, where there are endless opportunities (and reasons) for manipulation, there is a risk of abandoning perfectly sound businesses to unfair competition, and an unnatural fate. Is that in the national interest?

Anyway, perhaps in these enlightened times of environmental awareness, the ‘environmental cost’ should be the greatest consideration when it comes to deciding where and how we produce our food. And if that requires subsidy, then why not, as we’re all beneficiaries.
 
Think there be quite a few people who don't realise how hard life was in the 1930's, 40's and even 50's and 60's , fair to say that the current youth don't know how easy they have it or be it too much time and money.
From what farmers who farmed say the worst was in the 1920s when the uk was on the gold standard in the 30s devaluing £ things improved but that did not help all those who went broke before devaluation
My grand father said Farmers with sons who could work survived
Farmers with debt disappeared

Should we learn from history the next 10 years will be very interesting /challenging
 
So what about the other countries that either directly or indirectly subsidise agriculture then send their produce here? They distort the market/s. Perhaps there should be a global ban on any income given to all farmers, farming companies, landowners so we can all rely on the markets and a level playing field. I would be quite happy with that, but if the prices go up for any reason there should be no intervention to cap or restrict the prices. As this is not then true market forces........

I don't care. It's not a level playing field, never will be. Forget looking for one. Even with the funny money in play European agriculture can't compete in the world markets and there is a staggering lack of innovation in the industry with fewer and fewer new entrants and an ever increasing age for farmers.... do you see a problem here?
 
That’s not free market thinking is it,so as long as you keep getting your subsidy for working in the nhs nothing else matters,glad we are clear on that

You asked. I responded.

The NHS is not there to make a profit, just as well because from what I have seen they can't afford people to write the invoices anyway.

I am glad you are happy to be merely providing a service and not making any headway, with thinking like that the industry is utterly doomed long-term. Any business model seeking to emulate the NHS needs a serious wake up call I fear.
 

Hilly

Member
Again, I do not see why I, nor any other consumer or tax payer, should concern themselves with historical facts of this nature. The 70s was now basically 50 years ago. The 50s were now 70 years ago: it is not relevant. So the government had a milk for schools program, great.

I still see no valid argument for a government body solely existing to regulate the price of milk in any way. The marketplace works fine. Some farmers can make a good profit, some make a profit but have years or periods of low returns (much like the cycles endured by many different businesses, I might add) others can't make it pay no matter what they do. Put simply that is and was always the case, that is market forces for you, tough canoodles: welcome to the real world and the commercial realities of being in business today.

I am glad someone brought Thatcher up, I do like to see the closet socialists rear their heads even if they cannot bring themselves to admit it. So you want a government subsidy just for existing, a guaranteed price of milk at the farm gate: what else would you like, free tax payer funded slippers as well? Wake up.

They should not be self employed , they should just go get a job in a super market guaranteed weekly income as that`s all they seem want.
 

hally

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
cumbria
I don't care. It's not a level playing field, never will be. Forget looking for one. Even with the funny money in play European agriculture can't compete in the world markets and there is a staggering lack of innovation in the industry with fewer and fewer new entrants and an ever increasing age for farmers.... do you see a problem here?
Do you think only new entrants can be innovative?
 

turbo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
lincs
You asked. I responded.

The NHS is not there to make a profit, just as well because from what I have seen they can't afford people to write the invoices anyway.

I am glad you are happy to be merely providing a service and not making any headway, with thinking like that the industry is utterly doomed long-term. Any business model seeking to emulate the NHS needs a serious wake up call I fear.
I am not after providing a service or for that matter copying the nhs,just interested why your free market mantra cannot apply to health and why we need so many laws to protect people from dangerous drugs or procedures,surely following your thinking as long as it cheaper it should be allowed in the country
 
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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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