Farming without subsidies

[super4]

£50 acre spend is only possible in those countries because they have gm.It's got nothing to do with subs just regulations in each country is very different

I bet they don't get a lot of septoria in Australia or Argentina

 

[ollie989898]

Arable and vegetable crops are grown and sold at around world prices plus the subsidy. It is a vastly less complex and perishable market on the whole compared to livestock. The farms tend to be much bigger and on more fertile soils and the scale of production is largely limited by the amount of mechanisation possible. Livestock has far greater labour needs, often 365 days of the year and scale costs vastly more to achieve and is limited by the environmental, planning, labour per animal requirement and so on.
I know arable and believe me it is child's play in comparison. Many vegetable growers have long given up the job in the UK and many others have rented land out to specialist potato and pea and turf growers. 'Arable' in the UK now predominantly means 'grain crops' which are very seasonal and one family per 1000 acres can be achieved.

Even so, UK grain growers are vulnerable to a collapse of the livestock sector. A high proportion of their crops and byproducts of their crops currently go to feed livestock, pigs, poultry and cattle of all sorts. A collapse of those enterprises would leave a whole lot of grain looking for an export home, which would not be straightforward after a hard brexit.

Can't argue with that.

 

[turbo]

No, I was saying that they just do not spend the money. You will not find endless hordes of people spending even £50/acre- the potential of the crop is not high enough to justify it. Weed control might be a go of 2,4D and that is your lot. Other areas are more productive and they will do more, but don't kid yourself every arable farmer in America has a chemical spend identical to yours, they often don't. Would you spend the same money if I told you the crop was never going to break 2 tonne an acre no matter what you did?

But they havnt got the same yield as we have,every input has to show a postive increase in return

 

[Bury the Trash]

How does that influence rents for people who just want to grow corn on it?

dont know.
it was more aimed at, what people want for the countryside /how people value land, ie just somewhere to dump on dog walk on or build their houses and pretty mowed lawn garden on.
look at the building industy and all those that depend on it they dont care about the countryside it seems.

 

[Cowabunga]

Minus £25/acre

Even that might be too much.

 

[Right-arm fast]

That’s the land owners problem not mine !

Rents around here are simply inflated by the value of sub, so without it they will all adjust to the bare land rental value which is perfectly affordable whilst still being nicely profitable

Most farms have fixed cost structures that are frankly ridiculous vs where they could / should be - they may be good farmers but seriously lacking in the ability to run a business

It will put somef farns out of business - this is not a bad thing .............

I think you’re wrong, it will be your problem as the landowner will want some of your profit for putting his land into the agreement.

 

[yellow belly]

Direct sub free is one thing
But could the cereal sector compete with import duty free cereals
Currently the import of cereals into the Eu is taxed to protect Eu farmers and prevent dumping

No import duty and no subs means wheat at around £100 or less when the £ revalues
Livestock consume a big chunk of uk grown wheat if the livestock get imported then the uk will have to reduce production or export more grain

Unless the uk supermarkets differentiate between imported gm produced crop/gm fed livestock we will have to reduce costs a lot

 

[Hilly]

You are quite correct that the least intelligent will struggle on in poverty until every last penny they and their families have earned over generation is flushed down the the drain. If the job is not viable and undermined by a cheap imported food policy, then give up producing food before it bleeds you dry.

Farmers tend to hang on till bitter end, land values saved alot from bankruptcy last 30 year, negative equity could finish as many as no sub or cheap imports, although we have been battling cheap imports for ever so not alot of change their.

 

[ollie989898]

But they havnt got the same yield as we have,every input has to show a postive increase in return

Some of them get waaaay higher yields than you might, some of them barely get a fraction. Such is the nature of wildly different climatic conditions. In parts of Asia they can grow rice at 10-12 tonne/ha if the weather and season favours it, very low inputs by comparison.

Corn is similar, 176 bushels is near 4.5 tonne and that was average for last year, I've met people regularly growing 300 bushels no sweat, in some states, you can just about grow two crops in the same season.

The main point to take away is that despite the vast areas of crops grown in some of these countries, big-ag still sees Europe as the jewel for input spending- because it is subsidised.

 

[ollie989898]

I think you’re wrong, it will be your problem as the landowner will want some of your profit for putting his land into the agreement.

Would you sign up for an agreement of that nature?

 

[Farmer Roy]

err, we only have 2 GM crops here that Im aware of
cotton - which is only really grown in specific geographic / climatic areas & the MAIN benefit of GM is insect control, & GM Canola which has hardly set the world on fire & I personally don't see much point in

PS - the licence technology fee for Bollgard 3 / Roundup Ready Flex GM cotton is $395 / ha. That's JUST the licence fee. Know nothing about GM canola as I don't see the point or the need for a Roundup Ready weed control, but just a RR licence fee for cotton is still $75 / ha. We don't have RR maize or soyabeans or other crops here.
As to regulations - GM crops are VERY regulated here with a number of specific requirements & both the growers & the suppliers are audited throughout the season to ensure they comply
http://cottonchoices.com.au/cotton-choices-variations/price-discount/
http://cottonchoices.com.au/resources/new-to-cotton/

£50 acre spend is only possible in those countries because they have gm.It's got nothing to do with subs just regulations in each country is very different

 

[Bury the Trash]

@Bossfarmer watch this please

When i went there in '85 our sheep where much more prolific than theirs and about marketing (europe),and improving carcases well that was being .done/had been done back even before then

anyway he sounds the sort of chap that is needed in this country now . but who is there like him ?

 

[Hilly]

I

Would you sign up for an agreement of that nature?

Alot will, always someone willing to do it cheaper , some want to buy red cords others are happy with secondhand jeans.

 

[Cowabunga]

Farmers tend to hang on till bitter end, land values saved alot from bankruptcy last 30 year, negative equity could finish as many as no sub or cheap imports, although we have been battling cheap imports for ever so not alot of change their.

I agree with most of that except we have not been battling much cheap imports actually. We have been protected for the really cheap stuff by EU tariff and non-tariff barriers. No BST milk or milk products. No hormone treated beef. No chlorinated chicken. No GM crops. There's nothing wrong with any of those and the US thrives on them and so do the South Americans to an extent. Also we have not had to pay potentially massive tariffs on our exports to virtually any market, due to the negotiating strength of the EU. We go out with a bang, as looks increasingly likely, then none of those trade agreements stand.

 

[turbo]

Some of them get waaaay higher yields than you might, some of them barely get a fraction. Such is the nature of wildly different climatic conditions. In parts of Asia they can grow rice at 10-12 tonne/ha if the weather and season favours it, very low inputs by comparison.

Corn is similar, 176 bushels is near 4.5 tonne and that was average for last year, I've met people regularly growing 300 bushels no sweat, in some states, you can just about grow two crops in the same season.

The main point to take away is that despite the vast areas of crops grown in some of these countries, big-ag still sees Europe as the jewel for input spending- because it is subsidised.

All the countries you are on about have subs so I don’t see your point

 

[turbo]

err, we only have 2 GM crops here that Im aware of
cotton - which is only really grown in specific geographic / climatic areas & the MAIN benefit of GM is insect control, & GM Canola which has hardly set the world on fire & I personally don't see much point in

PS - the licence technology fee for Bollgard 3 / Roundup Ready Flex GM cotton is $395 / ha. That's JUST the licence fee. Know nothing about GM canola as I don't see the point or the need for a Roundup Ready weed control, but just a RR licence fee for cotton is still $75 / ha. We don't have RR maize or soyabeans or other crops here.
As to regulations - GM crops are VERY regulated here with a number of specific requirements & both the growers & the suppliers are audited throughout the season to ensure they comply
http://cottonchoices.com.au/cotton-choices-variations/price-discount/
http://cottonchoices.com.au/resources/new-to-cotton/

We wouldn’t need them if we had the same chemistry available to us that you have

 

[brigadoon]

Id say they get more already considering the driving force behind their trade is massively subsidised and their proffits are tax free, if only i had no income tax to pay ! ahh Anyway how do you know you will get anything after brexit ?

Forestry does not "get more", nor is the trade "massively subsidised" it is only in very recent years that conversion from agriculural to forestry usage has been able to retain BPS.

Income from timber sales is free of income tax - however no establishment or maintance costs are allowable against tax - so you are looking at a 25-45 year wait for a return on your investment.

Brexit should not affect the subsidy arrangements for forestry since AFAIK we are talking about UK as opposed to EU funding and again - all UK countries are well behind thier declared planting targets

 

[Hilly]

Forestry does not "get more", nor is the trade "massively subsidised" it is only in very recent years that conversion from agriculural to forestry usage has been able to retain BPS.

Income from timber sales is free of income tax - however no establishment or maintance costs are allowable against tax - so you are looking at a 25-45 year wait for a return on your investment.

Brexit should not affect the subsidy arrangements for forestry since AFAIK we are talking about UK as opposed to EU funding and again - all UK countries are well behind thier declared planting targets

big customer with a power station and bio mass not subsidised ?

 

[Farmer Roy]

meh - from a RR point of view ( ie - not seeing the point of it or the need ) its not about available chemistry but more about rotations & other cultural practices. The aim is to minimise ANY spending, not just chucking more chemistry or inputs at it

RR brings many more long term challenges & problems than it solves

We wouldn’t need them if we had the same chemistry available to us that you have

 

[Right-arm fast]

Would you sign up for an agreement of that nature?

Well Clives sub is paying his rent leaving his totally unsubsidised farm to pay its own costs and leave a profit. the rent will now have to come from somewhere else. If the landowner is having the sub that will be getting on for £100/ac coming from the farm instead of the EU.

 

[yellow belly]

err, we only have 2 GM crops here that Im aware of
cotton - which is only really grown in specific geographic / climatic areas & the MAIN benefit of GM is insect control, & GM Canola which has hardly set the world on fire & I personally don't see much point in

PS - the licence technology fee for Bollgard 3 / Roundup Ready Flex GM cotton is $395 / ha. That's JUST the licence fee. Know nothing about GM canola as I don't see the point or the need for a Roundup Ready weed control, but just a RR licence fee for cotton is still $75 / ha. We don't have RR maize or soyabeans or other crops here.
As to regulations - GM crops are VERY regulated here with a number of specific requirements & both the growers & the suppliers are audited throughout the season to ensure they comply
http://cottonchoices.com.au/cotton-choices-variations/price-discount/
http://cottonchoices.com.au/resources/new-to-cotton/

I do not see Australia as a competitor you do not compete with us as most of your outputs can find markets closer to Australia
The majority of wheat you grow is too high quality and price and is further than equivalent Canadians German wheat
Canola May be imported into Europe which now may be gm