Fert prices and stocking rates

[Flatlander]

Don't panic. Even if nitrogen fertiliser stays high:

Urea at £250/t gives a nitrogen cost of 27p/unit

Urea at £500/t gives a nitrogen cost of 54p/unit.

If sheep are grazed on decent permanent grass during the grazing season at between 4 and 7 ewes/acre, each ewe requires 24 units of nitrogen, spread over three dressings of about 12 units in March, 6 units in May, and 6 units in June/July.

At 27p /unit, the N costs £6.50/ewe. At 54p/unit, the N costs £13/ewe.

Now that lambs are worth £90 at weaning, (hopefully) , and each ewe rears 1.6 lambs worth £144, surely we can afford to spend £13/ewe on nitrogen.

Exactly the same principles apply to growing cattle (48 units/beast) or suckler cows with calves (96 units/cow).

Well-managed permanent grass will last forever. Expensive reseeds and clover leys will often be worn out in a few years and need ever-increasing expense to replace them. But the assumption is that optimum lime etc is applied in both cases.

Not everyone will grasp the concept of costing it out that way But it’s correct in principle. Fertilizer here is sky high but commodity prices are too. The kicker will come when the expensive fertilizer grows a crop worth average prices not the ones we at experiencing now. just had every field soil tested and had some surprising results. Have always applied phos above previous years removal but 20% but still showing between 6 ppm and 16ppm. Residual n is high at over 130 units spread evenly down to 24 inches. Potash is very high. Organic matter 6 to 9 %. Overall I won’t be cutting back on N despite high residual levels and will be upping the phosphate on some. On the lower pho’s level fields it will be banded 4 inches deep this fall.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Article in the FW saying lime is the answer , push PH to 6.5

 

[aangus]

Article in the FW saying lime is the answer , push PH to 6.5

Speaking to wise old fella the other day and this was the route he is going to take with a little straight n.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Don't panic. Even if nitrogen fertiliser stays high:

Urea at £250/t gives a nitrogen cost of 27p/unit

Urea at £500/t gives a nitrogen cost of 54p/unit.

If sheep are grazed on decent permanent grass during the grazing season at between 4 and 7 ewes/acre, each ewe requires 24 units of nitrogen, spread over three dressings of about 12 units in March, 6 units in May, and 6 units in June/July.

At 27p /unit, the N costs £6.50/ewe. At 54p/unit, the N costs £13/ewe.

Now that lambs are worth £90 at weaning, (hopefully) , and each ewe rears 1.6 lambs worth £144, surely we can afford to spend £13/ewe on nitrogen.

Exactly the same principles apply to growing cattle (48 units/beast) or suckler cows with calves (96 units/cow).

Well-managed permanent grass will last forever. Expensive reseeds and clover leys will often be worn out in a few years and need ever-increasing expense to replace them. But the assumption is that optimum lime etc is applied in both cases.

Your forgetting something with the sucklers? Not just 96 units per cow you will need to add fert cost for silage ground

 

[Old apprentice]

Dairy farmers with plenty of slurry ,when I was milking cows l stoped using P and K just streight N, P and K indexes 3 and 4 years after stopping spreading slurry.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Don't panic. Even if nitrogen fertiliser stays high:

Urea at £250/t gives a nitrogen cost of 27p/unit

Urea at £500/t gives a nitrogen cost of 54p/unit.

If sheep are grazed on decent permanent grass during the grazing season at between 4 and 7 ewes/acre, each ewe requires 24 units of nitrogen, spread over three dressings of about 12 units in March, 6 units in May, and 6 units in June/July.

At 27p /unit, the N costs £6.50/ewe. At 54p/unit, the N costs £13/ewe.

Now that lambs are worth £90 at weaning, (hopefully) , and each ewe rears 1.6 lambs worth £144, surely we can afford to spend £13/ewe on nitrogen.

Exactly the same principles apply to growing cattle (48 units/beast) or suckler cows with calves (96 units/cow).

Well-managed permanent grass will last forever. Expensive reseeds and clover leys will often be worn out in a few years and need ever-increasing expense to replace them. But the assumption is that optimum lime etc is applied in both cases.

Its cost me £19.80 over 5 years to put a grass clover ley In. This year's costings , how can that not be a good investment, ok I sell seed as well as farm, but you can't argue against costings whoever says it , I never used nitrogen on the sheep pastures and was quite intesive

 

[Flatlander]

its good that some can not use fertilizer and still produce a crop but unless those nutrients removed are replaced then the long term fertility will be tracking downward. P and k isn’t a cheap one year fix. If you have enough slurry or access to other sources other than bagged then great but don’t bleed your soil dry or you’ll be wondering why your crops are not like they used to be.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

its good that some can not use fertilizer and still produce a crop but unless those nutrients removed are replaced then the long term fertility will be tracking downward. P and k isn’t a cheap one year fix. If you have enough slurry or access to other sources other than bagged then great but don’t bleed your soil dry or you’ll be wondering why your crops are not like they used to be.

Yes and it's a long expensive road to get them back
But then a lot of N will deplete PH, P and K so there are savings by using less

 

[Flatlander]

Wish I could reduce my ph. Soil test puts the soil here at 8.2 to 8.4. Not good for pho’s tie up

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Wish I could reduce my ph. Soil test puts the soil here at 8.2 to 8.4. Not good for pho’s tie up

How come it's so high , Slurry and Nitrogen and constant cutting bring it down here

 

[muleman]

 

[Flatlander]

How come it's so high , Slurry and Nitrogen and constant cutting bring it down here

The red river valley was formed by the draining of Lake Agassiz a few thousand years ago. The soil is sediment from numerous flooding and draining episode which has left a very flat fine textured soil that is naturally high in ph. Due to its poor natural internal drainage the alkaline sub soil tends to influence the top soil in wetter years. Tile drainage would improve it dramatically but until recently the cost of land and the cost of tile wasn’t in the right ratio. It was cheaper to buy more land to produce a higher income. But in recent years land values have risen to a point where it’s cost effective to tile drain it and gave a higher producing crop from the same acreage. Most land has surface drainage to drain off heavy rain falls but that’s its own set of problems with erosion and nutrients leaching

 

[Jdunn55]

Don't panic. Even if nitrogen fertiliser stays high:

Urea at £250/t gives a nitrogen cost of 27p/unit

Urea at £500/t gives a nitrogen cost of 54p/unit.

If sheep are grazed on decent permanent grass during the grazing season at between 4 and 7 ewes/acre, each ewe requires 24 units of nitrogen, spread over three dressings of about 12 units in March, 6 units in May, and 6 units in June/July.

At 27p /unit, the N costs £6.50/ewe. At 54p/unit, the N costs £13/ewe.

Now that lambs are worth £90 at weaning, (hopefully) , and each ewe rears 1.6 lambs worth £144, surely we can afford to spend £13/ewe on nitrogen.

Exactly the same principles apply to growing cattle (48 units/beast) or suckler cows with calves (96 units/cow).

Well-managed permanent grass will last forever. Expensive reseeds and clover leys will often be worn out in a few years and need ever-increasing expense to replace them. But the assumption is that optimum lime etc is applied in both cases.

I agree to a point of what you're saying about fertiliser to a point but if you're only making £20 profit/ewe in the first place and now you're spending an extra £6.50 to get the same income you're now down to £13.50 profit per ewe to live off

Then if fuel is an extra £2/ewe and cake is more expensive costing an extra £2/ewe it's not long before you're in single figures

 

[Agrivator]

I agree to a point of what you're saying about fertiliser to a point but if you're only making £20 profit/ewe in the first place and now you're spending an extra £6.50 to get the same income you're now down to £13.50 profit per ewe to live off

Then if fuel is an extra £2/ewe and cake is more expensive costing an extra £2/ewe it's not long before you're in single figures

If you're only making £20/ewe on good upland grazing, (and assuming finance charges are reasonable) there is something drastically wrong.

 

[Jdunn55]

If you're only making £20/ewe on good upland grazing, (and assuming finance charges are reasonable) there is something drastically wrong.

£120 rent per acre divided by 6 = £20/ewe for summer
Vets and meds £10/ewe
Creep for lambs for 16 weeks @ 1kg/day = £50/ewe (assuming 1.5 lambs/ewe)
Ewe rolls @1kg/head for 50 days prior to lambing = £15
Fertiliser = £13
That adds up to £108
Using you £144 - £108 = £36 left over to pay for fuel, labour, fencing, winter grazing, silage, replacement ewes, rams, sheds and bedding (if you use them)...

But I would be intrigued to see your workings?

 

[Agrivator]

£120 rent per acre divided by 6 = £20/ewe for summer
Vets and meds £10/ewe
Creep for lambs for 16 weeks @ 1kg/day = £50/ewe (assuming 1.5 lambs/ewe)
Ewe rolls @1kg/head for 50 days prior to lambing = £15
Fertiliser = £13
That adds up to £108
Using you £144 - £108 = £36 left over to pay for fuel, labour, fencing, winter grazing, silage, replacement ewes, rams, sheds and bedding (if you use them)...

But I would be intrigued to see your workings?

With that level of concentrate use, you'd be better rearing calves (or pigs in normal times???) and just keep a few sheep extensively on the grassland.

 

[Anymulewilldo]

With that level of concentrate use, you'd be better rearing calves (or pigs in normal times???) and just keep a few sheep extensively on the grassland.

Come on, where are your workings?? Can’t call someone out without backing it up.

 

[Barmyfarmer]

£120 rent per acre divided by 6 = £20/ewe for summer
Vets and meds £10/ewe
Creep for lambs for 16 weeks @ 1kg/day = £50/ewe (assuming 1.5 lambs/ewe)
Ewe rolls @1kg/head for 50 days prior to lambing = £15
Fertiliser = £13
That adds up to £108
Using you £144 - £108 = £36 left over to pay for fuel, labour, fencing, winter grazing, silage, replacement ewes, rams, sheds and bedding (if you use them)...

But I would be intrigued to see your workings?

Why would lambs need 1kg day of creep for 16 weeks? Easier just to use grass to finish them

 

[Anymulewilldo]

Why would lambs need 1kg day of creep for 16 weeks? Easier just to use grass to finish them

Upland grass won’t finish them before winter?

 

[MDL POWERUP]

Upland grass won’t finish them before winter?

By that working you'd need about 34 tonne of feed to finish 300 lambs? Seems way over the top?