Ford 3 Cylinder in Sanderson Forklift - Water in Sump

[startinghandle]

Relined my Lamborgini 105 when the cylinders went porous only for the transmission to fail 2 years later.

Starting to think maybe best to get rid and not waste any more time and money on it. I have urgent farming stuff to do, and these things just soak up large amounts of hours,money and energy chasing problems round and round.

Bit of a dilemma. If the fault had made itself know clearly then it would be easier.

My thoughts from the start but I said nothing to avoid bad comments!!
After 40 years the machine is well used

 

[Boohoo]

Some aren't going to believe me with this but I know of a powerstar that went porous recently. When the head was removed there was a rusty residue above the offending cylinder but they couldn't see anything wrong with the block until the bores were honed and the water started to run.

 

[DrWazzock]

My thoughts from the start but I said nothing to avoid bad comments!!
After 40 years the machine is well used

That's a fair comment and if the repair looks to be too complex or too involved then it will be scrapped or sold to a breaker.

At the moment I am still investigating.
Been pressuring the cooling system today and found slight leak in centre of radiator core and slight leak at end of header tank. Nothing major but might have crept the level down with no obvious external leak.

Cannot see any water coming down the cylinder bores despite holding cooling pressure high with piston at top, but it's noticeable that oil oozes out of all of the main journals when the cooling system is pressurised. I think it does anyway, as seems to drip oil/water emulsion onto floor at faster rate when pressurise radiator. So this would indicate a leak between the oil and water systems somewhere, but not necessarily through the cylinder bores. Could be blown head gasket or crack somewhere else.

Will pressure test each cylinder through injector hole before removing head.

Then if nothing conclusive I think I will scrap it.

 

[7610 super q]

I hate to keep harping on, but I'd seriously consider using Steel Steal gasket sealant. I've even heard of folks putting engine oil in the rad, so if it leaks into the sump it's not the end of the world. ( minor leak obviously, not a torrent. Also oil will rot hoses eventually. )

I was in the exact same situation as you. I've a Manipoo, so thought I'd scrap the Sanderson. Even started removing steering pumps and other useful items before the transit tipper boys took the rest.

Thank goodness I changed my mind. As a one man band having the Sandy as backup for the Manipoo when it decides it only wants to go backwards instead of forwards etc has done wonders for stress levels.

 

[Chuckie]

I hate to keep harping on, but I'd seriously consider using Steel Steal gasket sealant. I've even heard of folks putting engine oil in the rad, so if it leaks into the sump it's not the end of the world. ( minor leak obviously, not a torrent. Also oil will rot hoses eventually. )

I was in the exact same situation as you. I've a Manipoo, so thought I'd scrap the Sanderson. Even started removing steering pumps and other useful items before the transit tipper boys took the rest.

Thank goodness I changed my mind. As a one man band having the Sandy as backup for the Manipoo when it decides it only wants to go backwards instead of forwards etc has done wonders for stress levels.

Best stuff I've used is called irontite ceramic seal. Follow the instructions and it really works long term.

 

[7610 super q]

As I said it's easy spending other peoples money, but 2 bottles cost me £80, and I've had another 7 years use out of the Sandy. No need to get the spanners out either.

 

[milkloss]

Like @7610 super q says, why not load it up with steel seal? If it works the only problem you'll have is learning to live with never knowing what was wrong with it!

 

[Mursal]

You seem to be covering all bases, great if you get away with a headgasket. We leave jobs like that until we have time, a very worthwhile wetday task

 

[7610 super q]

You seem to be covering all bases, great if you get away with a headgasket. We leave jobs like that until we have time, a very worthwhile wetday task

Steel seal should fill a hole anywhere, whether it be the gasket, or the block itself.

 

[DrWazzock]

Nearly a day lost due to round trip for grain moisture meter test then had to leave my car at a garage due to wheel bearing failure.
Getting on with compression tests on each cylinder next, before head comes off.
Half a day to spend on it tomorrow then half a day NRoSO course for RT.
Next week land work starts gathering pace with base fert on beet land and ploughing etc so it will probably go on the back burner for mulling over.
The big tractor is overheating though now, apparently. Exhaust gas blasting out of turbo gasket. Deep joy.

 

[Lincsman]

Can that much water get into the sump via head gasket failure? isnt the cylinder pressure always going to blow gasses into the water system?.. or is there a point where water gets through to an unpressurised oil gallery, but is that a common fail point?

 

[DrWazzock]

Can that much water get into the sump via head gasket failure? isnt the cylinder pressure always going to blow gasses into the water system?.. or is there a point where water gets through to an unpressurised oil gallery, but is that a common fail point?

Well its got me a bit baffled. Pressurising cooling system shows no leaks other than a slight leak halfway down radiator. No water leaking into sump via block as far as i can see. Its also been sat a couple of days now and water level not dropped. Maybe heat opens a crack as said above.

Compression tested each cylinder, motoring it on the starter motor.

Cylinder 1 290 psi
Cylinder 2 290 psi
Cylinder 3 240 psi.

My tester is a bit leaky but tested each one twice and got same result after reconnecting. Nothing really stands out. No bubbles in rad, nor did it spew out water when topped up when running after the intial overheat, so I don't think cylinder compression area is getting to the cooling water.

Next job is to pressurise each cylinder with compressed air to 150 psi through injector holes, (but need to make a fitting) with rocker shaft loosened off so valves are closed. I think I ought to remove the oil pump so see if water is forced back down into the oil ways. Should have done that when I pressurised the rad.

Toying with idea of using hot water for the tests but its a pallaver and don't want to shock the block.

Would be nice to get more of an idea of the source of the fault before taking the head off.

I reckon the water level went low due to the small leak halfway down the rad. It probably sucked the water onto the engine and evaporated so wasnt noticeable. Did not check the level often enough and I reckon I have cooked the head/bust the gasket, rather than it being a porous block problem, though could have cracked block or head with overheating.

Best case scenario is that gasket is letting water into oilway where its mixing. Maybe there is a return oilway letting water in. You expect the supply side oil ways to be at higher pressure than the water.

Its all a bit

 

[Sharpy]

Well its got me a bit baffled. Pressurising cooling system shows no leaks other than a slight leak halfway down radiator. No water leaking into sump via block as far as i can see. Its also been sat a couple of days now and water level not dropped. Maybe heat opens a crack as said above.

Compression tested each cylinder, motoring it on the starter motor.

Cylinder 1 290 psi
Cylinder 2 290 psi
Cylinder 3 240 psi.

My tester is a bit leaky but tested each one twice and got same result after reconnecting. Nothing really stands out. No bubbles in rad, nor did it spew out water when topped up when running after the intial overheat, so I don't think cylinder compression area is getting to the cooling water.

Next job is to pressurise each cylinder with compressed air to 150 psi through injector holes, (but need to make a fitting) with rocker shaft loosened off so valves are closed. I think I ought to remove the oil pump so see if water is forced back down into the oil ways. Should have done that when I pressurised the rad.

Toying with idea of using hot water for the tests but its a pallaver and don't want to shock the block.

Would be nice to get more of an idea of the source of the fault before taking the head off.

I reckon the water level went low due to the small leak halfway down the rad. It probably sucked the water onto the engine and evaporated so wasnt noticeable. Did not check the level often enough and I reckon I have cooked the head/bust the gasket, rather than it being a porous block problem, though could have cracked block or head with overheating.

Best case scenario is that gasket is letting water into oilway where its mixing. Maybe there is a return oilway letting water in. You expect the supply side oil ways to be at higher pressure than the water.

Its all a bit

The cooling system will be at a higher pressure than the oil pressure when the engine is switched off. Thinking abit sideways, could you run the machine with the seals out of the radiator cap to reduce the pressure?

 

[DrWazzock]

The cooling system will be at a higher pressure than the oil pressure when the engine is switched off. Thinking abit sideways, could you run the machine with the seals out of the radiator cap to reduce the pressure?

Good point. Hadn't thought of that. So oil/water could flow either way through a leaking head gasket.
Not too keen on running with cap off as it will increase localised boiling and cavitation and porosity. And won't oil flow into the water when the engine is running?

My only hope now is that there is a leak between the oil and water system via the head gasket/warped head. I can fix that. If its a crack somewhere, and it doesn't appear to be the cylinder bores, then I can't fix it and its a scrap job.

Still wonder if I am missing something.

But I still suspect I had let the water run low due to the rad leak. If the cooling system had been full when the water leaked into the oil then the water would have been flowing out of the dipstick hole, which it wasnt when we examined it when it over heated.

 

[Sharpy]

Good point. Hadn't thought of that. So oil/water could flow either way through a leaking head gasket.
Not too keen on running with cap off as it will increase localised boiling and cavitation and porosity. And won't oil flow into the water when the engine is running?

My only hope now is that there is a leak between the oil and water system via the head gasket/warped head. I can fix that. If its a crack somewhere, and it doesn't appear to be the cylinder bores, then I can't fix it and its a scrap job.

Still wonder if I am missing something.

But I still suspect I had let the water run low due to the rad leak. If the cooling system had been full when the water leaked into the oil then the water would have been flowing out of the dipstick hole, which it wasnt when we examined it when it over heated.

It depends how hard its worked, bearing in mind that there is a fair chance you need a new engine to be sure of perfection why not give it a try? Money and time wise it is cheap, at worst may aid diagnosis?

 

[ACEngineering]

I wouldn't bore and sleeve. Did a 6610 years ago only for to go porous in the camshaft gallery a few years later

Timik bore and sleeve oil gallery?

 

[DrWazzock]

Timik bore and sleeve oil gallery?

I looked at a Timik replacement engine and wondered what the score was. If cylinders are bored and lined I would be interested. Oil gallery sleeved even better. But I would be wary of taking a punt on an unmodified Ford block or secondhand engine even it seems water tight. I notice there is a surcharge if you don't exchange your engine. I wonder if there is also a surcharge if they find your engine impossible to repair. I suppose I ought to ask them if I get to that stage.

This forkift still does the most of the loading work here and it would be very inconvenient if it failed again. We do have a manitou but its slow and lumbering in comparison as we have a cramped yard and small sheds.

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

Good point. Hadn't thought of that. So oil/water could flow either way through a leaking head gasket.
Not too keen on running with cap off as it will increase localised boiling and cavitation and porosity. And won't oil flow into the water when the engine is running?

My only hope now is that there is a leak between the oil and water system via the head gasket/warped head. I can fix that. If its a crack somewhere, and it doesn't appear to be the cylinder bores, then I can't fix it and its a scrap job.

Still wonder if I am missing something.

But I still suspect I had let the water run low due to the rad leak. If the cooling system had been full when the water leaked into the oil then the water would have been flowing out of the dipstick hole, which it wasnt when we examined it when it over heated.

water is heavier than oil, water sinks to the bottom of the sump through time when standing, how full up the dip stick was it

 

[DrWazzock]

water is heavier than oil, water sinks to the bottom of the sump through time when standing, how full up the dip stick was it

Right up to the top. When drained, pure water out first. Then a grey/black emulsion. This was the day after the overheating incident.

 

[ACEngineering]

I looked at a Timik replacement engine and wondered what the score was. If cylinders are bored and lined I would be interested. Oil gallery sleeved even better. But I would be wary of taking a punt on an unmodified Ford block or secondhand engine even it seems water tight. I notice there is a surcharge if you don't exchange your engine. I wonder if there is also a surcharge if they find your engine impossible to repair. I suppose I ought to ask them if I get to that stage.

This forkift still does the most of the loading work here and it would be very inconvenient if it failed again. We do have a manitou but its slow and lumbering in comparison as we have a cramped yard and small sheds.

Timik have been doing ford engines for ages at least 25 plus years. Every one I ever had off them was perfect. Henry doesn't cut corners but was never the cheapest and for good reason, they dont skimp on anything!

Henry might not even be there though? Possibly retired by now?