Ford 3 Cylinder in Sanderson Forklift - Water in Sump

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Each cylinder pressurised to 150 psi then supply valve closed and time taken to drop from 100 to 50 psi recorded

Cylinder 1 180 seconds
Cylinder 2 180 seconds
Cylinder 3 70 seconds a lot of blow by past the piston, not valves. This is same cylinder that was low on compression test.

In all three cases no air leakage was detected to the water or oil systems.

With piston 3 having some sort of compression issue, this points me more towards buying a reconditioned engine than trying to do much more to this engine.

Will take head off just to have a look but even reconditioning that won't fix the blowing piston and a water leak crack could still open in the block when it heats up.

A bit frustrating that I can't positively identify how the water got into the sump but that's the nature of it.
 

Pennine Ploughing

Member
Mixed Farmer
Right, so here goes, you say water in the sump, so how did it get there,
Well if it a porous block let's say the liners, now if it's porous on the compression side of piston, it will purchase bubbles into the water jacket, more commonly seen in the rad, but bubbles in rad could also mean a head gasket as well,
If porous below compression in liner it will leak into the sump,
A hair line crack in liner may mean it won't leak when cold, there is a difference between a porous hole and a hair line crack as a crack can open or close due to temperature on the steel,
There is also core plugs in the head that may leak water in to the sump, look very carefully at them as they rust from the inside to outside, may look very good and sound where the oil is in contact with them, but rusted away on inside, ,
Other point of a leak could be from the camshaft gallery, again if porous would not really seal up, a crack would, but a crack in this area is very slim,
You have tried what you can without going further into it, so whip the head off and inspect the head gasket to see if any tell tale signs of it leaking, if no sign at all of it being at fault, then remove pistons and then block the bottom hose with something to hold water, fill with really hot water and leave for 5 mins, then drain, and refill block again with really hot water and antifreeze 50 50 mix, this should find the leak, and if you turn engine over this will help to find the leak in the camshaft area,
Once a mate had a leak in the camshaft area, he drilled and taped it and threaded a short bolt in in, and fixed it , if a liner, then bore out in situ and pass in a liner, and re bore to original size for a standard piston, core plugs and head gasket, well you will know what to do there,
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
A timik recon looks like best option TBH. Yes I could try hot water but end of day cylinder 3 is blowing big time so let's have a fresh recon engine one tenth of price of secondhand telehandler.
 

Pennine Ploughing

Member
Mixed Farmer
A timik recon looks like best option TBH. Yes I could try hot water but end of day cylinder 3 is blowing big time so let's have a fresh recon engine one tenth of price of secondhand telehandler.
Take it not piston is at the back, most likely to give bother as it's furthest away from the water pump, and will have hot spots due to rust build up around the bore, this in turn gives more wear on bore it's self, that will be why a drop in compression,
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Take it not piston is at the back, most likely to give bother as it's furthest away from the water pump, and will have hot spots due to rust build up around the bore, this in turn gives more wear on bore it's self, that will be why a drop in compression,

Yes its the piston furthest from the water pump that has low compression and most leakage past it. Every day is an education.

Funny how these problems draw me in. A quick look soon turns in to a full blown rebuild. Will take head off and hot water /antifreeze test the block at next opportunity.

If I find the leak I will feel like I have turned a corner.

If only farming didn't get in the way of a good project.
 

wdah/him

Member
Location
tyrone
sanderson sb 50 here, recond the engine 10-12 years ago, maybe more and had a 46 ford engine out of a hymac 370 digger different engine in the sanderson, a ford 36? was a full rehaul but it was only hard to start but porus however our engine man bores out , presses in and bores out again on all engines.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Got round to this job again. Head still on it. Crank and pistons still in it. Radiator removed. Pressurising the engine cooling water system with compressed air to 14 psi, cold, no leakage. Will try again with pressurised hot water. I think it will need a recon engine but would like to find the source of the water leak just to convince myself it isn't something as simple as a blown head gasket that might have suffered due to coolant running low due to radiator leak,
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
0825E6FA-F886-4BD6-9523-8742C748683E.jpeg
found the leak with hot water at 20 psi. It’s away from the cylinder so I can’t see a rebore and liner sealing it. Cylinder 2 lhs rear corner in the webbing next cylinder bottom water jacket, not the cylinder itself.
I wonder if I can bodge it somehow? If head is off is there enough access through water holes to scratch corrosion off other side and stick some liquid steel epoxy on it? Or try steel seal as originally suggested. At least have satisfied myself that I know where the problem is.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Aye, drill and tap it, don't put the tap right through so it leaves a tapered hole and thread a bolt in
The leak / porous area seems to be on the flat underside but also on the corner itself and up the side slightly. I reckon I’d be lucky to catch it all by drilling and tapping or would end up with the threads/ hole coming out the side of the vertical piece.
 

Pennine Ploughing

Member
Mixed Farmer
The leak / porous area seems to be on the flat underside but also on the corner itself and up the side slightly. I reckon I’d be lucky to catch it all by drilling and tapping or would end up with the threads/ hole coming out the side of the vertical piece.

In that case,
needle gun it clean and shiny, clean with brake cleaner and compressed air,
and then parge in "Tiger seal" spread it out to the sides of the infected area, leave 36 hours
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
In that case,
needle gun it clean and shiny, clean with brake cleaner and compressed air,
and then parge in "Tiger seal" spread it out to the sides of the infected area, leave 36 hours

thanks for that.
Plan A is bung some k seal in the system. If that works all well and good.
Plan B is as you say try tiger seal. I couldn’t remember the name so thanks for that.
Plan C might well be to fit a s/h engine if I can find a reasonable one.
Plan D scrap the entire machine. It’s 45 years old and done us well but isn’t worth spending a lot on it. I think a recon engine would come out about £3k which is more than a complete runner machine of that age is worth.

I have flushed the block, agitating with compressed air and there is a lot of copper coloured gunge come out. Looks to me like it might have had a dose of sealant before we bought it secondhand in 1980.
Rad away for repair. A few leaks .
 

Pennine Ploughing

Member
Mixed Farmer
thanks for that.
Plan A is bung some k seal in the system. If that works all well and good.
Plan B is as you say try tiger seal. I couldn’t remember the name so thanks for that.
Plan C might well be to fit a s/h engine if I can find a reasonable one.
Plan D scrap the entire machine. It’s 45 years old and done us well but isn’t worth spending a lot on it. I think a recon engine would come out about £3k which is more than a complete runner machine of that age is worth.

I have flushed the block, agitating with compressed air and there is a lot of copper coloured gunge come out. Looks to me like it might have had a dose of sealant before we bought it secondhand in 1980.
Rad away for repair. A few leaks .
Just remember it will leak 5 x more with antifreeze in, than straight water
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
Just remember it will leak 5 x more with antifreeze in, than straight water

so would you fill with water and add the sealant then run till winter then drain then refill with antifreeze mix. I am hoping the sealant works fast enough to avoid dumping too much coolant in the sump again. I know it lost the last fill of coolant very quickly but when static and cold in the shed it’s just a drip.
 

Pennine Ploughing

Member
Mixed Farmer
Change the oil in another tractor, keep the old oil, put it in this tractor, fill with hot water if possible, add your sealant ( cannot recommend any ) and run the tractor,
If temp gauge works, I would make up a makeshift header tank, bypass rad, and run till hot with sealant in
 

Pennine Ploughing

Member
Mixed Farmer
Makeshift tank,,,, the hoses will need extended to side of engine,
Find a gallon drum, cut hole in bottom and side at the bottom of drum, turn upside down fit bottom hose to filler cap now at bottom with jubilee clip, stick top hose through side hole near the now top, fill through top hole
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
BBD3210F-8802-467C-83D0-3D2B1F58DD88.jpeg

took the head off just to have a look. The leak in the floor of the block is directly below the oblong water hole in the middle of the picture. Couldn’t get a photo of the leaky area itself but it looks like a cavity in bad tooth. Might be able to clean it with a Dremel bit and fill it with epoxy.
 

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