FT

[Bury the Trash]

.

I'm intrigued to know what's so marvellous about the system we have now.

but isnt that what the mixed farmers, the ones who didnt go all out arable and extreme ie knocked out all their hedges etc etc.wouldve said when the began to happen , i dont know maybe circa late 40's

its the swinging pendulum effect is as i see a danger. middle of the road although a tad boring , is a more steady better use of all resources.?

ie i note use of prairie in you're earlier post, theres none of them around here.

 

[onesiedale]

We don't do it because we are in a cult. We do it because it's easier, it works, it's cheaper and it's good for the soil! You've got it all so arse about face it's funny!

It's not just arable farmers being drawn over to the dark side! As a very much conventional dairy farmer, I have been there, seen it done it regarding the high input route.
Now, cows are milked just once a day, no supplements are fed (100% grass/forage fed). The farm is way more profitable, easier to manage, and more enjoyable and best of all, other than the rent to the landlord, we don't send any money to town!
What's not to like?

 

[SilliamWhale]

.

but isnt that what the mixed farmers, the ones who didnt go all out arable and extreme ie knocked out all their hedges etc etc.wouldve said when the began to happen , i dont know maybe circa late 40's

its the swinging pendulum effect is as i see a danger. middle of the road although a tad boring , is a more steady better use of all resources.?

ie i note use of prairie in you're earlier post, theres none of them around here.

Maybe element of it. But so what?

 

[Bury the Trash]

Maybe element of it. But so what?

Do extremes help improve things as a whole is what.

 

[D14]

i have been told personally by numerous drill manufacturers they just bang the price up when the grants come along.

Well I’ve now had 3 grants and I priced equipment up before applying for the grant and then ordered once accepted for the grant and the price remained the same. The suppliers didn’t even know I’d got a grant to be honest.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Well I’ve now had 3 grants and I priced equipment up before applying for the grant and then ordered once accepted for the grant and the price remained the same. The suppliers didn’t even know I’d got a grant to be honest.

in the last few yrs them prices have gone up beyond the norm/inflation just like sheep handling kit ,thats if you can get it

 

[Grass And Grain]

If some farmers get efficiencies from conservation ag, improve their soils, and lock up carbon in the soil - then that's great.

But if we all go into a mainly direct drilled combinable rotation (encouraged by financial incentives of ELMS) at the expense of uk veg production (because that requires a plough), then I suspect that is not helpful.

We'll produce more grain to export, then have to import more veg to cover our requirements.

There's more to food production than just sequesting carbon.

I think constant self-centred promotion of dd techniques to get extra subsidies and persecution and bad mouthing of root crop growing plough based systems is unfair.

The 5 a day veg producet should get lots of sub and grants from ELMS, whilst the alcohol producing dd barley grower should be heavily taxed.

My point really, is that there's nothing wrong with dd, and nothing too wrong with farming systems that need to use a plough. They are just different techniques used to achieve different things - and ELMS policy should recognise that, or rather not favour one over the other.

 

[SilliamWhale]

If some farmers get efficiencies from conservation ag, improve their soils, and lock up carbon in the soil - then that's great.

But if we all go into a mainly direct drilled combinable rotation (encouraged by financial incentives of ELMS) at the expense of uk veg production (because that requires a plough), then I suspect that is not helpful.

We'll produce more grain to export, then have to import more veg to cover our requirements.

There's more to food production than just sequesting carbon.

I think constant self-centred promotion of dd techniques to get extra subsidies and persecution and bad mouthing of root crop growing plough based systems is unfair.

The 5 a day veg producet should get lots of sub and grants from ELMS, whilst the alcohol producing dd barley grower should be heavily taxed.

My point really, is that there's nothing wrong with dd, and nothing too wrong with farming systems that need to use a plough. They are just different techniques used to achieve different things - and ELMS policy should recognise that, or rather not favour one over the other.

No one is bad mouthing veg producers. We are just saying intense soil tillage causes erosion and co2 emissions.

 

[ajd132]

No one is bad mouthing veg producers. We are just saying intense soil tillage causes erosion and co2 emissions.

Which it does. Sick of hearing ‘you can’t no till carrots’ and ‘it’s the weather’ when pictures emerge of fields washing away. Some sort of arrogance that we are at the utter pinnacle of production and that no farmer can do anything wrong. Doesn’t help with the industry leaders constantly telling us we are the best in the world. Massive lack of accountability in U.K. farming.

i started to explore no till/regen ag to make more money, end of.
All the environment and wildlife stuff comes after.
When they announced BPS was going we decided to make sure we could survive with zero subsidy and zero environmental payments even in a disaster year.
there is enough people all around the U.K. on all soil types to prove it can work pretty much anywhere for combineables.
If they want to give me money for what I’m doing then great, but it is not even a consideration for me when making decisions on my own farm.
If other land owners want to use me for my years of study and knowledge on the subject, and experience we are now gaining to farm in that way and gain as many eco subs as possible then that’s absolutely fine by me!

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

No one is bad mouthing veg producers. We are just saying intense soil tillage causes erosion and co2 emissions.

Mind the baby in the bathwater though. UK grown fresh veg is definitely a public good and is a lot closer to being food than some commodities we grow. Ok, the intensity of cultivations may not be sustainable long term, but techniques and methods evolve and improve. There's always a solution, it's early days and I'm optimistic.

 

[ajd132]

Mind the baby in the bathwater though. UK grown fresh veg is definitely a public good and is a lot closer to being food than some commodities we grow. Ok, the intensity of cultivations may not be sustainable long term, but techniques and methods evolve and improve. There's always a solution, it's early days and I'm optimistic.

Agree. But there is a lot of ‘we can’t do it any different’ but I know quite a few who are really changing things up which is great.

 

[Will Blackburn]

Mind the baby in the bathwater though. UK grown fresh veg is definitely a public good and is a lot closer to being food than some commodities we grow. Ok, the intensity of cultivations may not be sustainable long term, but techniques and methods evolve and improve. There's always a solution, it's early days and I'm optimistic.

There’s no sign of improvement at present, in my lifetime, veg cultivation has only become more intense. When I was born a few runs with a set of discs before ridging spuds and potatoes were selected out of the soil. Now deep ridging, cultivation and sifting. Followed by picking in conditions beyond all sense, that would have had us digging by hand.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Mind the baby in the bathwater though. UK grown fresh veg is definitely a public good and is a lot closer to being food than some commodities we grow. Ok, the intensity of cultivations may not be sustainable long term, but techniques and methods evolve and improve. There's always a solution, it's early days and I'm optimistic.

Sure. But until you recognise an issue you are not going to change anything. Its all a process.

 

[onesiedale]

Sure. But until you recognise an issue you are not going to change anything. Its all a process.

True.
Small progress; change the way you do things.
BIG progress; change the way you see things

 

[Grass And Grain]

Which it does. Sick of hearing ‘you can’t no till carrots’ and ‘it’s the weather’ when pictures emerge of fields washing away. Some sort of arrogance that we are at the utter pinnacle of production and that no farmer can do anything wrong. Doesn’t help with the industry leaders constantly telling us we are the best in the world. Massive lack of accountability in U.K. farming.

i started to explore no till/regen ag to make more money, end of.
All the environment and wildlife stuff comes after.
When they announced BPS was going we decided to make sure we could survive with zero subsidy and zero environmental payments even in a disaster year.
there is enough people all around the U.K. on all soil types to prove it can work pretty much anywhere for combineables.
If they want to give me money for what I’m doing then great, but it is not even a consideration for me when making decisions on my own farm.
If other land owners want to use me for my years of study and knowledge on the subject, and experience we are now gaining to farm in that way and gain as many eco subs as possible then that’s absolutely fine by me!

I'm all for no-till for cost reduction, soil OM improvement, hopefully less environmental provlems etc.

My gripe is the RPA offering grants for direct drills, but ignoring the needs of a carrot grower to buy a plough, or a harvester on tracks etc. And there is a tendency for no-tillers to promote their system and lobby government, whilst dissing other systems.

There are some terrible looking ex root crop fields now. Ruts, standing water, run-off etc. Cheapest way to fix that for spring will be a plough imho. But, we all eat spuds, carrots, onions, cauli, calibrese, sprouts, sugar etc. Is there any other solution for these fields other than a plough?

Meanwhile, many no- tillers are growing spring barley (to keep on top of grass weeds), which then gets made into alcoholic drinks - which is bad.

I'm all for no-till in the right circumstances on some (many) farms. I just think RPA are getting brainwashed that it is the only way, and they should offer grants to encourage no-till, whilst not supporting the veg grower in a similar manner. Really I think that if grants arecoffered, then grants should be available for each farmer, and the farmer should choose what to spend the cash on.

Economic and environmental gains from no-till is obviously a good thing if it is working.

 

[ajd132]

I'm all for no-till for cost reduction, soil OM improvement, hopefully less environmental provlems etc.

My gripe is the RPA offering grants for direct drills, but ignoring the needs of a carrot grower to buy a plough, or a harvester on tracks etc. And there is a tendency for no-tillers to promote their system and lobby government, whilst dissing other systems.

There are some terrible looking ex root crop fields now. Ruts, standing water, run-off etc. Cheapest way to fix that for spring will be a plough imho. But, we all eat spuds, carrots, onions, cauli, calibrese, sprouts, sugar etc. Is there any other solution for these fields other than a plough?

Meanwhile, many no- tillers are growing spring barley (to keep on top of grass weeds), which then gets made into alcoholic drinks - which is bad.

I'm all for no-till in the right circumstances on some (many) farms. I just think RPA are getting brainwashed that it is the only way, and they should offer grants to encourage no-till, whilst not supporting the veg grower in a similar manner. Really I think that if grants arecoffered, then grants should be available for each farmer, and the farmer should choose what to spend the cash on.

Economic and environmental gains from no-till is obviously a good thing if it is working.

I agree. I actually had a grant for a no till drill, which I was going to share with two local farmers. In the end I decided against it as I didn’t think it would work out. I actually end up buy a drill twice the size with a different farmer without a grant because it was the right thing to do for us and has worked out better in the long run. The grant money is not much in the grand scheme to be honest.

 

[redsloe]

i have been told personally by numerous drill manufacturers they just bang the price up when the grants come along.

No doubt you have a point. But it relative it everything else imo.
A plough 24k ?
Fert spreader 15k ?
Trailer 15k ?
Tractor 100k (priced)
Round baler 25k ?
30k for a drill still looks RELATIVELY good value

 

[ajd132]

No doubt you have a point. But it relative it everything else imo.
A plough 24k ?
Fert spreader 15k ?
Trailer 15k ?
Tractor 100k (priced)
Round baler 25k ?
30k for a drill still looks RELATIVELY good value

i dont know I think most drills are disproportionately expensive, especially many of the specialist direct disc drills. the sky drill is a crazy amount of money, the 750a has gone up a huge amount the last few years despite being hugely outdated with no changes in the last 20 years. funnily enough the cheapest drill per/m is a 12m avatar.
6m rapids must be pushing 70k now? farmers weekly did have all the prices in a feature a month or two ago.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

i dont know I think most drills are disproportionately expensive, especially many of the specialist direct disc drills. the sky drill is a crazy amount of money, the 750a has gone up a huge amount the last few years despite being hugely outdated with no changes in the last 20 years. funnily enough the cheapest drill per/m is a 12m avatar.
6m rapids must be pushing 70k now? farmers weekly did have all the prices in a feature a month or two ago.

I think much of that comes down to how producer's minds tend to work.

"Gotta spend money to make money" if internalised becomes "If I spend more, I get more" which is completely false.
The joy of prejudice unseen.

 

[ajd132]

I think much of that comes down to how producer's minds tend to work.

"Gotta spend money to make money" if internalised becomes "If I spend more, I get more" which is completely false.
The joy of prejudice unseen.

Guilty