Future of the Sheep Industry

[jendan]

Deferred grass? Root crops?

Selection of right genetics and rotational grazing can eliminate almost all dosing.

What about pulpy kidney and orf?

 

[farmerm]

Quote last week's Farmers Weekly: "Defra figures show that, while across all farm types, 60% of farm income comes from direct payments, for grazing livestock that soars to more than 90%."

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/farm-business-income

Yet farmers remain pro Brexit despite the fact Brexit will bring about the end of direct payments

 

[farmerm]

So if you were to cut your flock by 20-25%, would that enable a stockpile to be made for cutting wintering costs? Would the reduction in cop make up for lower production? (And free up time for better earning work)

Cutting a flock by 20% frees up less than 5% of time unless you have 1000s

 

[Al R]

It's definitely quite a cost to consider.

We AWG for this exact reason, the biggest input in any farm business is SUNSHINE, and an acre of soil captures no solar energy until the weeds walk in - the rain runs off, the microbes vanish..

It works out better for us to simply conserve grass in the autumn and slowly graze our way down with regular stock movements.
You still get the minerals, the energy, the protein - but the cost and work aren't there.

I've never understood the economy of short-term leys as opposed to a permanent pasture, the inputs required are like night and day.

Quite often low input is low output, an old PP can never feed as much as a 3 year old ley, but it will winter better and won’t poach in the wet, having a mix of both is key.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Quite often low input is low output, an old PP can never feed as much as a 3 year old ley, but it will winter better and won’t poach in the wet, having a mix of both is key.

This can be the case, but it depends on the management as much as the pasture.

It does make me wonder when I read some of the threads on here, just why the emphasis is so heavily on output: because it's the input costs and overheads that define how much of that revenue is available as profit?

pasture is still improving for the first 50 years if it is managed properly, and an improved ley is going downhill after 5 years, or at least the improved species can be.
The main factors are stock density, the higher this is, the bigger your farm becomes, thus plants have more time in the sun and the spiral goes upward.

Faster growing species therefore are no real benefit to the overall "picture", ie you are spending money to gain time, while losing time.
In this respect, 'improved' pasture is simply a concentrated version of permanent pasture, with less diversity and less resilience.

I think the only way it adds value to the business overall is if you price your time at zero!

 

[livestock 1]

An interesting point I would like to make here but hopefully not diverting the thread off topic.
In the early eighties I remember vividly my father making good use of adas grants for ‘land improvement’ schemes. We had a great agent at the time called Frank Grimshaw and he was great for forward thinking farmers. We transformed acres of poor land with lime, slag and triple super phosphates with the grant schemes to help with the costs. Since then we have all been advised into the opposite direction on hill sda land where stewardship els/Hls schemes don’t allow lime phosphate or slag in many cases as they like to see acidic plants or natural and semi natural vegetation. Also areas of stock exclusion ten years at a time and reduced stocking rates on all of it. You don’t need to enter any schemes to be subject to any of this it is law through sssi.
I think this is interesting to add to the discussion now as we are again focusing on profit margins. We have been pushed and pulled in many directions.

 

[Al R]

This can be the case, but it depends on the management as much as the pasture.

It does make me wonder when I read some of the threads on here, just why the emphasis is so heavily on output: because it's the input costs and overheads that define how much of that revenue is available as profit?

pasture is still improving for the first 50 years if it is managed properly, and an improved ley is going downhill after 5 years, or at least the improved species can be.
The main factors are stock density, the higher this is, the bigger your farm becomes, thus plants have more time in the sun and the spiral goes upward.

Faster growing species therefore are no real benefit to the overall "picture", ie you are spending money to gain time, while losing time.
In this respect, 'improved' pasture is simply a concentrated version of permanent pasture, with less diversity and less resilience.

I think the only way it adds value to the business overall is if you price your time at zero!

I see some stuff on here and my eyes roll to, tmr with concentrates to singles, mineral tubs out all year, feeding ewes and lambs almost all year. As proven so many times over, the cheapest feed is grass. It’s that good of a feed that the only sheep I have locked inside is singles which are on a silage only diet to take a fair bit of weight off them not put it on.

It’s not surprising some people have such a high cop with how many inputs their using, if they can’t learn to adapt their system, breeding and many other costs a fair few people will be left behind. I know I’m swaying more towards a certain breed which there are hundred of thousands of, pretty much look after themselves and will last months longer on the same ground that a mule/Texel would stop eating in within weeks as they forage better on mixed grasses and not just lush grass.

 

[livestock 1]

I see some stuff on here and my eyes roll to, tmr with concentrates to singles, mineral tubs out all year, feeding ewes and lambs almost all year. As proven so many times over, the cheapest feed is grass. It’s that good of a feed that the only sheep I have locked inside is singles which are on a silage only diet to take a fair bit of weight off them not put it on.

It’s not surprising some people have such a high cop with how many inputs their using, if they can’t learn to adapt their system, breeding and many other costs a fair few people will be left behind. I know I’m swaying more towards a certain breed which there are hundred of thousands of, pretty much look after themselves and will last months longer on the same ground that a mule/Texel would stop eating in within weeks.

I am surrounded by a lot of farmers who produce the mule gimmer lamb. I also produce the mule gimmer lamb but solely for the purpose of flock replacements for myself. My neighbors who produce these lambs are in a very competitive market. It’s unbelievable how good they are at it and the lambs are what can only be described as massive when the September sales come around. However there is a cost starting with a ewe for around £120/150 at 3 crop rams usually between 2 and 10k ewes fed with cake through winter often pre tupping too inside lambing housing pre lambing ewes fed after lambing into June/July and lambs on hoppers after that sometimes at the same time. It has become so competitive now who knows where it will end

 

[Al R]

I am surrounded by a lot of farmers who produce the mule gimmer lamb. I also produce the mule gimmer lamb but solely for the purpose of flock replacements for myself. My neighbors who produce these lambs are in a very competitive market. It’s unbelievable how good they are at it and the lambs are what can only be described as massive when the September sales come around. However there is a cost starting with a ewe for around £120/150 at 3 crop rams usually between 2 and 10k ewes fed with cake through winter often pre tupping too inside lambing housing pre lambing ewes fed after lambing into June/July and lambs on hoppers after that sometimes at the same time. It has become so competitive now who knows where it will end

What happens when those ewe lambs hit farms that don’t hard feed for the rest of their lives? Surely it’s a very false economy and should be in the same category as the cabbage rams? How will they manage to maintain the feeding post Brexit if prices drop?

 

[Woolless]

What happens when those ewe lambs hit farms that don’t hard feed for the rest of their lives? Surely it’s a very false economy and should be in the same category as the cabbage rams? How will they manage to maintain the feeding post Brexit if prices drop?

Probably part of the reason that mules have a reputation for not lasting?

 

[livestock 1]

What happens when those ewe lambs hit farms that don’t hard feed for the rest of their lives? Surely it’s a very false economy and should be in the same category as the cabbage rams? How will they manage to maintain the feeding post Brexit if prices drop?

The prices dropped last year unfortunately after the anticipated high values. I’m with you completely on what you are saying. When we sold these sheep into auctions we had regular buyers who liked them as they had no hard feed and would move on. Obviously they were half the size then and if anyone turned up with lambs that size now they would be laughed out of the mart. It’s like a treadmill I suppose a one I won’t can’t afford to get on

 

[livestock 1]

Probably part of the reason that mules have a reputation for not lasting?

My home bred ones last well. They don’t get any cake until their first winter though. If that makes any difference

 

[Woolless]

My home bred ones last well. They don’t get any cake until their first winter though. If that makes any difference

I’m sure it does. It’s one thing pushing lambs hard if they’re going on a hook, different again if they’ve a long term job to do.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I see some stuff on here and my eyes roll to, tmr with concentrates to singles, mineral tubs out all year, feeding ewes and lambs almost all year. As proven so many times over, the cheapest feed is grass. It’s that good of a feed that the only sheep I have locked inside is singles which are on a silage only diet to take a fair bit of weight off them not put it on.

It’s not surprising some people have such a high cop with how many inputs their using, if they can’t learn to adapt their system, breeding and many other costs a fair few people will be left behind. I know I’m swaying more towards a certain breed which there are hundred of thousands of, pretty much look after themselves and will last months longer on the same ground that a mule/Texel would stop eating in within weeks.

Hmmm... yes, if your stock can't make do without most of that, why would you have them around anyway, let alone want more?

It's reasonably obvious that the way to have stock that need minerals is to give them minerals; stock that need top quality feed by giving them top quality feed, and all the other "can't do withouts" - give them freely, breed from the biggest of those and you've suddenly made work for yourself til the day you quit (or price yourself out).

....an arse like Beyonce is all very well... but "you drive for show, you putt for dough" springs to mind....

As for being left behind, it's a bit late to change now; most successful businesses are looking to change when at the top of their game, while they can afford to.

 

[livestock 1]

I’m sure it does. It’s one thing pushing lambs hard if they’re going on a hook, different again if they’ve a long term job to do.

We always said that. Father used to go and see where these sheep ended up about this time of year for a get together possibly a pee up around east anglia. A lot was on stubble and some did the lambing with a rifle but a lot has changed since then that was 35 years ago

 

[Al R]

Hmmm... yes, if your stock can't make do without most of that, why would you have them around anyway, let alone want more?

It's reasonably obvious that the way to have stock that need minerals is to give them minerals; stock that need top quality feed by giving them top quality feed, and all the other "can't do withouts" - give them freely, breed from the biggest of those and you've suddenly made work for yourself til the day you quit (or price yourself out).

....an arse like Beyonce is all very well... but "you drive for show, you putt for dough" springs to mind....

As for being left behind, it's a bit late to change now; most successful businesses are looking to change when at the top of their game, while they can afford to.

Funnily enough the person I buy brokers and some foundation stock ewe lambs from wants around 120% lambing for his Hill ground. He retains the biggest ewe lambs for himself, Sells the next 3-4 draws of ewe lambs to other hill farmers and then we have the next draw of lambs, he is extremely confident that all single born lambs would have already been retained so I end up with a batch of twin born ewe lambs that scan at 180% with no feeding/blocks or flushing. Suits all of us

 

[livestock 1]

Funnily enough the person I buy brokers and some foundation stock ewe lambs from wants around 120% lambing for his Hill ground. He retains the biggest ewe lambs for himself, Sells the next 3-4 draws of ewe lambs to other hill farmers and then we have the next draw of lambs, he is extremely confident that all single born lambs would have already been retained so I end up with a batch of twin born ewe lambs that scan at 180% with no feeding/blocks or flushing. Suits all of us

There is a big difference in lambing % on better ground though.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Funnily enough the person I buy brokers and some foundation stock ewe lambs from wants around 120% lambing for his Hill ground. He retains the biggest ewe lambs for himself, Sells the next 3-4 draws of ewe lambs to other hill farmers and then we have the next draw of lambs, he is extremely confident that all single born lambs would have already been retained so I end up with a batch of twin born ewe lambs that scan at 180% with no feeding/blocks or flushing. Suits all of us

That does sound a good arrangement.

I almost do the opposite - get my mate's "seconds" that don't quite make the cut for his own replacements, but they are a bit too prolific for comfort when fed properly
My lazy efforts at holding them up just aren't working - Global Ovine suggests I simply need more sheep, I'm tending to agree.. they come in once to be shorn pre-lamb, and again to scan them.

Totally agree with @farmerm in that it takes no longer to run 600 from paddock to paddock than 60 - we work at 365 stock moves per year, the rest of the job they can do themselves

 

[Global ovine]

What about pulpy kidney and orf?

Many diseases will still exist in a flock irrespective of grazing system and level of genetic improvement for performance of the flock. Such diseases will still have to be vaccinated against.
Flocks bred for worm resistance or resilience (entirely different set of genes required for each) using bona fide selection programmes can substantially reduce drench chemical inputs and performance outputs. Worms cause the greatest production loss of all diseases globally.

Pastoral systems involving long spelling and short intensive grazings encourage higher grass digestibility and legume content. When sheep grow better so does their immune system. For every 1% increase in protein intake, a finishing lamb can handle an increased worm burden that increases faecal egg counts by over 300 epg.

Don't knobble the two greatest opportunities to increase output and decrease inputs by looking for an excuse wherever one farms. Grazing management that best suits the soils, plants and animals coupled with sheep genetics (finding the right breeder) that at least maintain output but at much less cost in labour and health are the two.

But the key to making the changes will always be the sheep genetics. Because every farmer with an ounce of intelligence has always exploited an opportunity when it becomes obvious, especially if it means saving cash outlays initially and increasing output when that too arises.

Thirty years of historical evidence of these two factors, combined in equal effect, have doubled NZ's lamb output per ewe. Despite having the lowest sheep meat prices received (compared to UK, Ireland, France and Australia) NZ farmers have enjoyed the highest profitability internationally over the last decade. Their confidence has made land values remain high as they compete to grow their businesses.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Cutting a flock by 20% frees up less than 5% of time unless you have 1000s

Not necessarily .
If it means they can be run mostly on grass and negate a lot of making/ feeding of fodder, and concentrate feeding, it can make a huge time difference.