Getting a dog to work properly.

At the end of February I bought a dog from an auction, not a cheap one either. We went straight into lambing and so there was no work for her until a couple of weeks ago although I did put her around the dry lambs a few times.
My problem is I can’t get her to walk on and push a flock she just sits down behind them. In every other way she is spot on she is clean and quiet in her room, very biddable and obedient has a fantastic outrun works the sides but she will sit down and not push.
I have spoken to her previous owner about this and to his absolute credit has offered me my money back, the problem I have is I’d like to keep her if l can get her to push up, is there anything I can do?
 

Boso

Member
She won’t bring them to me.
Won't bring lambs or adult sheep?

My kelpie dog is very careful with lambs, which can be frustrating because he will not push them to me as much as I'd like. Once they get older no problem at all. He's just a young dog, will probably improve.
If your bitch is fine otherwise I would keep her and try to get her where you want here training wise. Maybe take her out together with the previous owner/trainer, he might be able to help you.
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
At the end of February I bought a dog from an auction, not a cheap one either. We went straight into lambing and so there was no work for her until a couple of weeks ago although I did put her around the dry lambs a few times.
My problem is I can’t get her to walk on and push a flock she just sits down behind them. In every other way she is spot on she is clean and quiet in her room, very biddable and obedient has a fantastic outrun works the sides but she will sit down and not push.
I have spoken to her previous owner about this and to his absolute credit has offered me my money back, the problem I have is I’d like to keep her if l can get her to push up, is there anything I can do?

Sticky dog with too much eye. Its a breeding think. But also not many trainers teach dogs to walk on to sheep anymore.

You can improve it with training. But there’s a genetic limit. Is the dog fit? If you’ve not done much with her she’s maybe out of shape, which won’t help.
 

ladycrofter

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
Give her a chance! You've said she's had little work with you. Get her in the yard without sheep to lie down/sit/however you stop her. Then say "walk up" and back up a few steps, even kneel down this helps them come to you. Keep repeating and give big praise. Work on this for a few days until she has it. Then get her on 3-4 quiet sheep and encourage her.
You are needing to help her overcome something she's been taught badly, or had a bad experience, either real or imagined, it doesn't matter. She might have had a bad knock from a tup or protective ewe when she was young. She sounds a lovely promising dog.
 

Huwie

Member
Had many of the years like that! Typical collie! Giver her time to gain confidence but unfortunately if it’s not in her to push she wont. You said she has got a good out run which is good. it’s hard to get the push and the outrun in one dog. Could be the way she’s been trained as well. Nothing worse than a dog that wont push. Sheep learn in the end that the dog is not a threat to them. Myself I would get my money back and look for something that suits you
 

yellowbelly

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
N.Lincs
My problem is I can’t get her to walk on and push a flock she just sits down behind them
Too many sheep, too soon.

Go back to a few 'light sheep' that will 'go' to rebuild confidence.
Flank her side to side to get some momentum going.

Got a similar problem here. The old bitch suddenly ran out of energy half way through lambing (her mind was willing but her body can't cope any more) so the young dog got chucked in at the deep end for catching fresh lambed ewes. It was a bit too much, too soon.

Got the job done but arsey ewes turning on him and stamping their feet has dented his confidence a bit so now there's a bit more time we've gone a few steps back in his training to take the pressure off a bit and make it 'fun' for him again.
 

Dry Rot

Member
Livestock Farmer
Some will be against this, but work her with another dog if you can and completely ignore her. Let her do what she wants and don't say a word to her. Let her come up when you are handling sheep. And all the above.

Someone once told me to occasionally catch a sheep and handle it. That makes sense to a dog as they want to work with you and it must seem strange (to a dog) to 'hunt' a prey species but seldom bother to catch one!
 

Al R

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
West Wales
I’ve always found bigging them up and getting them seriously excited can get them to nip heels when moving or pushing up etc. I’ve got some dogs which will challenge 50 sheep by herself in a small shed to others that will only nip at advantage points in the pens, as in where there is a small gap or underneath or above the race where the dogs can reach over and grab an ear etc
 

ladycrofter

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
Too many sheep, too soon.

Go back to a few 'light sheep' that will 'go' to rebuild confidence.
Flank her side to side to get some momentum going.

Got the job done but arsey ewes turning on him and stamping their feet has dented his confidence a bit so now there's a bit more time we've gone a few steps back in his training to take the pressure off a bit and make it 'fun' for him again.
Similar here, she learned to push on hoggs which would move no problem! Then into wise old ewes with young lambs sqauring up to her, seriously charging and stamping.
I can put her back and forth and around them but they refuse still sometimes 🙄 It really confuses her wht they won't go. When she was younger she would snap a tup for doing the same!
I either wade in and smack them with the stick, or chuck something large stick, stone at them.
Works for both- as said, she sees "we're" getting tore in to them going, and often the ewe takes a telling and doesn't do it again, associates it with the dog.
Dogs are more literal thinkers than humans.
 

Estate fencing.

Member
Livestock Farmer
Similar here, she learned to push on hoggs which would move no problem! Then into wise old ewes with young lambs sqauring up to her, seriously charging and stamping.
I can put her back and forth and around them but they refuse still sometimes 🙄 It really confuses her wht they won't go. When she was younger she would snap a tup for doing the same!
I either wade in and smack them with the stick, or chuck something large stick, stone at them.
Works for both- as said, she sees "we're" getting tore in to them going, and often the ewe takes a telling and doesn't do it again, associates it with the dog.
Dogs are more literal thinkers than humans.
My old main dog gets like that this time of year, very frustrating when he wont push them on but he must be fed up of have a beating from old mules. I have a useless and wild dog that has no commands that I let out the truck as they are getting to prattley to push them into them pens.
 

Guleesh

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Isle of Skye
Just sounds like a dog with not much 'power'? Some dogs can shift hundreds of sheep effortlessly just by their presence, and some just can't. I've got a bitch that sounds like yours, no power. She's doing little wrong, but always too wide and too far back, stops when the sheep stop. Initially pretty hopeless for driving, penning or catching, I spent a good while trying to teach her to get stuck in, and she will now get up and snap at ewes a bit when encouraged, but without continual encouragement really she's just the same as she always was.

I just make some allowance for her and now actually find her style invaluable for the wildest hill ewes. A lot of little places I gather you only get one shot and one chance to lift the sheep as there's cliffs and ravines that they know they can bolt to that it's impossible for me and the dogs to get them out of -(alive). With her calm and steady attitude, she's got the best chance of getting into the right place unseen and then, more importantly, lifting the sheep gently enough that they don't scatter and bolt. I also thinks she works well when moving a big flock with other dogs, left without commands, she oversees the operation, and although she's never right up at the sheep, she always seems to be in the right place when something tries to break.

I've got 4 dogs atm, one is in his teens and retired, but still use him round the house and for extra help when penning ewes and lambs, a bitch that's good at driving and penning, my most used dog that's become very good at catching, and the bitch above who's good when gathering on the hill. They're all different and have their strengths and weaknesses, but together they make a good team. I select the best suited dog depending on what the job is.

My point is I haven't trained them to all be different, they just are, and so I just use them for their individual strengths, and by always selecting them to work at what they're good at, improved them in their own strengths. So although I think you probably can get your bitch to be a bit harder on the sheep, ultimately that 'power' will always be lacking and without continual pushing from you she'll always be about the same.
 

yellowbelly

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
N.Lincs
My point is I haven't trained them to all be different, they just are, and so I just use them for their individual strengths, and by always selecting them to work at what they're good at, improved them in their own strengths
Very important, IMHO, to recognise the strenghs and weaknesses in your dogs.

Always try to play to their strengths and try not to expose them to their weaknesses.

In a work situation, that's not always possible but 'making' a dog do something it's not all that comfortable with only sours them and is best avoided if at all possible.
 

Humble Village Farmer

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Essex
Sticky dog with too much eye. Its a breeding think. But also not many trainers teach dogs to walk on to sheep anymore.

You can improve it with training. But there’s a genetic limit. Is the dog fit? If you’ve not done much with her she’s maybe out of shape, which won’t help.
I'd agree. after several weeks off you might expect a bit more enthusiasm. Suggests a lack of power which the sheep will learn to disrespect.
 

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