Glastir advanced / Glastir organic advice please.

[orchard]

Morning!

We're on the verge of buying a smallholding of only a few acres - two fields [ I believe currently under Option 166 – Hay meadow Management for Curlew (Nesting) ], and 1/2 acre of organic horticulture.

Any help with the following questions would be appreciated:

1. When does the current Glastir round end ?
2. Although we intend to remain organic (although not necessarily paying the fees), we need to be able to use half of the meadows throughout each year for low LU mob grazing, and chicken tractors - would this be okay once out of Glastir ?
3. Is it possible to sparsely plant some trees in the future ?

Thanks

 

[Derrick Hughes]

You can do what you like if your not in a scheme within reason and the Scheme belongs to the applicant so won't be transpereable,
And you can't sell oraganic veg unless your a signed up member , you can't really call it organic , it's like me calling myself and Olympic Cyclist because I cycle [emoji3]

 

[tepapa]

I'm assuming there is already a glastir agreement on the land?
The end date depends when the original agreement was signed. Usually a 5 year scheme.

 

[orchard]

You can do what you like if your not in a scheme within reason and the Scheme belongs to the applicant so won't be transpereable,
And you can't sell oraganic veg unless your a signed up member , you can't really call it organic , it's like me calling myself and Olympic Cyclist because I cycle [emoji3]

Thanks.
Hahaha, I realise that if I don't pay for certification I can't claim to be 'Organic', but now the SA take a flat payment, it takes a lot of vegetables to shift just to pay for their endorsement on this scale.

 

[orchard]

I'm assuming there is already a glastir agreement on the land?
The end date depends when the original agreement was signed. Usually a 5 year scheme.

Yes. So it is transferred?

 

[Derrick Hughes]

I'm assuming there is already a glastir agreement on the land?[emoji848]
The end date depends when the original agreement was signed. Usually a 5 year scheme.

What happens then if I apply then sell said land ,

 

[tepapa]

What happens then if I apply then sell said land ,

You sell it with an agreement or give all the money received back to end the scheme.

 

[neilo]

Yes. So it is transferred?

The contract is between the Welsh Government and an individual, so I wouldn't have thought it would be transferable. However, the previous farmer would have signed to commit the land for the length of the contract, which is normally 5 years. He/she will be in default I suppose, not you.

Have you got a copy of the contract? It will have details of the specific requirements of the options selected, as well as start and end dates for the agreement.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Yes. So it is transferred?

Yes sorry it seems you can , if you meet the criteria and the guy who sells it may have to pay a penalty

 

[orchard]

The contract is between the Welsh Government and an individual, so I wouldn't have thought it would be transferable. However, the previous farmer would have signed to commit the land for the length of the contract, which is normally 5 years. He/she will be in default I suppose, not you.

Have you got a copy of the contract? It will have details of the specific requirements of the options selected, as well as start and end dates for the agreement.

Thanks. No, sorry, the MIL is dealing with the solicitors. If it was expiring in the next six moths or so, then fine, i'd be happy carrying out the commitments, otherwise, the land's pretty much untouchable for LU's, and it seems desperate for OM, it's been too wet to put anything back, apparently, for quite a few years...

 

[orchard]

Yes sorry it seems you can , if you meet the criteria and the guy who sells it may have to pay a penaltyView attachment 973486

Cheers, that's great. Is it me, or does it seem ambiguous ? Maybe not on the fourth read, it seems the onus is entirely on those that engaged in the contract, but then there's

"The new occupier is liable for the Contract, including all breaches identified following the transfer and resultant penalties, even where the cause of the breach occurred prior to the date of the transfer, from the date of transfer of the Contract from you to the new occupier. In the event that you transfer, sell or otherwise dispose of all or part of the Contract Land and the Welsh Government considers that the environmental objectives of the Contract have been undermined as a consequence, this may be treated as a breach of Contract which may result in termination and all payments made being recovered with interest."

Advanced Rules 2019

 

[orchard]

Full context:

Section F – Contract Amendments Transferring or Selling Land under Contract You must notify the Welsh Government upon any transfer or sale of any land which forms part of the Glastir Contract, including changes to land occupation and/or tenancy, within 30 calendar days of the event. Failure to notify the Welsh government within the 30 days is treated as a scheme breach and may result in a penalty.

The new occupier may continue with the obligations contained in the Contract for the remainder of the term of the Contract subject to approval by the Welsh Government.

The new occupier is liable for the Contract, including all breaches identified following the transfer and resultant penalties, even where the cause of the breach occurred prior to the date of the transfer, from the date of transfer of the Contract from you to the new occupier.

In the event that you transfer, sell or otherwise dispose of all or part of the Contract Land and the Welsh Government considers that the environmental objectives of the Contract have been undermined as a consequence, this may be treated as a breach of Contract which may result in termination and all payments made being recovered with interest.

 

[tepapa]

I know that whole agreement can be transfered with the land but I wouldn't have though that if your just buying one field or a small parcel that the agreement would be transferable. More likely that field would be withdrawn from the agreement and any scheme money in relation to that field repaid.

 

[orchard]

I know that whole agreement can be transferred with the land but I wouldn't have though that if your just buying one field or a small parcel that the agreement would be transferable. More likely that field would be withdrawn from the agreement and any scheme money in relation to that field repaid.

It is small, like 12acres-ish, but it constitutes their entire agreement, as that's all the smallholding is, 12+house and ag buildings. Under this agreement there is no scope for livestock unless continually housed, hahaha. I think it was worth something like 1.8k/year, less Organic certification...

 

[tepapa]

Find out when the agreement started and it's end date. If the date is too away for your liking then pay any money back to government to end the agreement.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Find out when the agreement started and it's end date. If the date is too away for your liking then pay any money back to government to end the agreement.

I can't see he's under any legal obligation to do anything or have I got that wrong , if the owner sells it it's up to him to pay the money back and up to the new owner to decide if he wants to take it on , they can't force if he don't want to

 

[orchard]

Find out when the agreement started and it's end date. If the date is too away for your liking then pay any money back to government to end the agreement.

Thanks, chasing dates currently.

I think it ought to be those that entered the contract and unable to complete that pay themselves out, don't you? Hopefully it'll only have a few months to run and we'll complete it for them.

 

[tepapa]

Thanks, chasing dates currently.

I think it ought to be those that entered the contract and unable to complete that pay themselves out, don't you? Hopefully it'll only have a few months to run and we'll complete it for them.

They have a right to sell it with scheme running and you have a right not to buy it.

 

[orchard]

They have a right to sell it with scheme running and you have a right not to buy it.

They can't sell the scheme if it needs applying for after the event, surely?

 

[tepapa]

I can't see he's under any legal obligation to do anything or have I got that wrong , if the owner sells it it's up to him to pay the money back and up to the new owner to decide if he wants to take it on , they can't force if he don't want to

The purchaser can buy the land and continue with the scheme agreement in place or chose not to buy the land, I'm sure no-one is forcing them to buy it if they don't want to.