Glyphosate ..... adjuvant ??

[Sonoftheheir]

We use exchange and activator 90 with Rosate 360, does a good job at any rate.

Thumbs up for rain (soft) water too!

 

[Brisel]

It’s a water conditioner from Intracrop spelt Attak

That would explain why it's not listed as a registered adjuvant

Isn't that @drummer_bruhaha 's new employer?

 

[Desangosse Ltd]

That would explain why it's not listed as a registered adjuvant

Isn't that @drummer_bruhaha 's new employer?

Nope, sorry. I’m off to FMC in October

 

[Feldspar]

Perhaps it's a water conditioner as opposed to an adjuvant. It wouldn't be listed then...

After many hours of research I'm trying Li 700 with generic Glyphosate here this year. So far I have used it when spraying winter barley volunteers prior to drilling OSR, and I've seen the quickest kill in years.

I used 2l/ha 360g/l Glyphosate + 0.25 Li 700 at a water volume of 100 l/ha. De Sangosse did recommend an additional water conditioner e.g. X-change, if the water is very hard.

I do plan to do a trial with different Glyphosate rates and Li 700 rates, with and without X-change on some Vol OSR prior to wheat drilling, IF I get time to mess about. I'll take some pics if I do get chance.

Please let me know how you get on. We are in hard water areas and since glyphosate formulation has changed we have had some pretty disappointing results, sometimes using water conditioner too. It's rather worrying really.

 

[mikep]

MCPA where practical but care pre drilling plus vinegar at 1:500. Works here but that's my water.

 

[jonnyjon]

Molasses and rain water?

 

[Woodlander]

Ok then I'm in soft water area(usually borehole water used) and I use cheap glyphosate and need to kill grasses and broadleaves - what adjuvant do you recommend I use? I have used Katalyst with Agrii but found it a bit pricey

I think everyone needs to ask themselves what they are trying to achieve from an adjuvant when added to glyphosate - and I'm far from an expert!

I like to split it into two categories - alterations to the water, and alterations to the plant.

In terms of water - there are two areas to consider, alkaline hydrolysis and locking up cations in hard water. I believe it is the latter which is important with glyphosate, so if you are in a hard water area, a water conditioner may help. It alters the water, making sure the glyphosate is all available, rather than being locked up on the cations. See attached diagram which shows several products which claim to condition the water, and what they actually do. Water conditioners do not alter the plant.

So if you are in a soft water area, using rain water etc, it must be alterations to the plant which are important. So, what are you trying to achieve? You need something which will aid penetration and translocation in the weed, thus speeding uptake and therefore improving efficacy. Are you also looking for something which helps prevent drift, so the active all hits the target, and what about rainfastness?

For me Li 700 ticks all of these boxes and I believe provides partial conditioning of the water, hence why the addition of some extra water conditioner may be beneficial in very hard water.

One final important area for me is a product I can trust. It seems that every man and his dog makes adjuvants. I want a quality product, which is tried and tested, and from a company I know will provide technical backup if I need it. Adjuvant legislation can be a bit of a grey area.

And then don't forget the commercial aspect. Why does one distributor stock one adjuvant over another? If they stock more than one, why does an agonomist favour recommending one over another? I'll let you all answer these questions!! I don't want to start the age old independent vs. distributor arguement again!

And so to my trial mentioned above. I don't want to include an adjuvant/water conditioner unless it is needed. I want to do things in the most cost effective way. So I'm looking to see if what works in my situation, with my water, this year. Is it a higher rate of glyphosate, or a lower rate with adjuvant.

I'm sure @drummer_bruhaha will correct anything that's not correct here.

 

[Grass And Grain]

MCPA where practical but care pre drilling plus vinegar at 1:500. Works here but that's my water.

Interesting. Have you either calculated the amount of vinegar to add, or alternatively tested the water? Or just going on the fact that it works?

My chemistry is a bit rusty, but would it be that the ph of the acidifying agent is important, but also the molar concentration???

I'm all for using the cheapest solution.

Going by the smell of it, x-change water conditioner is propionic acid, and it is priced considerably dearer than propcorn.

 

[David.]

I have been using Glyfast from Zantra, added to 3.5l of 360, and it seems to work ok.
It is way cheaper than Spryte Aqua, which itself is nearly as dear as adding extra 360.

 

[Steevo]

One day I plan to do a trial field - one half with glyphosate alone, one with glyphosate + conditioner.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Be very interesting if NIAB published a booklet on a this like they do with nozzles and cover crops

 

[arcobob]

I think everyone needs to ask themselves what they are trying to achieve from an adjuvant when added to glyphosate - and I'm far from an expert!

I like to split it into two categories - alterations to the water, and alterations to the plant.

In terms of water - there are two areas to consider, alkaline hydrolysis and locking up cations in hard water. I believe it is the latter which is important with glyphosate, so if you are in a hard water area, a water conditioner may help. It alters the water, making sure the glyphosate is all available, rather than being locked up on the cations. See attached diagram which shows several products which claim to condition the water, and what they actually do. Water conditioners do not alter the plant.

So if you are in a soft water area, using rain water etc, it must be alterations to the plant which are important. So, what are you trying to achieve? You need something which will aid penetration and translocation in the weed, thus speeding uptake and therefore improving efficacy. Are you also looking for something which helps prevent drift, so the active all hits the target, and what about rainfastness?

For me Li 700 ticks all of these boxes and I believe provides partial conditioning of the water, hence why the addition of some extra water conditioner may be beneficial in very hard water.

One final important area for me is a product I can trust. It seems that every man and his dog makes adjuvants. I want a quality product, which is tried and tested, and from a company I know will provide technical backup if I need it. Adjuvant legislation can be a bit of a grey area.

And then don't forget the commercial aspect. Why does one distributor stock one adjuvant over another? If they stock more than one, why does an agonomist favour recommending one over another? I'll let you all answer these questions!! I don't want to start the age old independent vs. distributor arguement again!

And so to my trial mentioned above. I don't want to include an adjuvant/water conditioner unless it is needed. I want to do things in the most cost effective way. So I'm looking to see if what works in my situation, with my water, this year. Is it a higher rate of glyphosate, or a lower rate with adjuvant.

I'm sure @drummer_bruhaha will correct anything that's not correct here.

The Hard water effect is obviously important but the early adjuvants were purely surfactants and spreaders which improved adhesion to the leaf by breaking down surface tension. This was particularly important on glossy leaves. Many people used liquid soap and even water soluble degreasers to break down the interface between waxy and water soluble product. Probably highly illegal but there seems to be a great deal of smoke and mirrors employed to market a cheap and readily available solution at an inflated price.

 

[Brisel]

Be very interesting if NIAB published a booklet on a this like they do with nozzles and cover crops

They do have a technical note on adjuvants with glyphosate. If you're a member, @Fromebridge might be able to get it bumped back up the search list on the database

 

[Gong Farmer]

Data was mostly relevant to pre-harvest use so probably can't bump it up. I'll email @SilliamWhale a copy though

 

[Warnesworth]

Spryte Aqua or Sparkler.
Both great products!

 

[SilliamWhale]

They do have a technical note on adjuvants with glyphosate. If you're a member, @Fromebridge might be able to get it bumped back up the search list on the database

Data was mostly relevant to pre-harvest use so probably can't bump it up. I'll email @SilliamWhale a copy though

Having read it I don't honestly think I need to do nothing

 

[Cropper]

I seem to remember putting a few pounds of ammonium sulphate in the sprayer was as good as anything and a lot cheaper.

 

[Breakthru]

All water south of the forth either comes from limestone rock or overlies limestone rock. Our local reservoir is the lowest for 30+ years so it is possible that ph and carb/bicarb levels are higher than normal.
Very noticeable in this area that any Glypho not applied either in conditioned or acidified/conditioned spray water just had Zero effect.
Stubbles green two weeks after just harvesting the top of the crop.

 

[robbie]

Haven't tried it my self buy I've been told a generous squirt of fairy will do a good job the same bloke did also tell me to put a cup of diesel in the tank aswell to stop it foaming up.

 

[Breakthru]

Haven't tried it my self buy I've been told a generous squirt of fairy will do a good job the same bloke did also tell me to put a cup of diesel in the tank aswell to stop it foaming up.

Used diesel before to stop foaming but Fairy L will not acidify, as in neutralise the alkilinity or condition the carb/bicarb in the water.