Glyphosate again!! ( Sorry ! )

[Goldilocks]

At the risk of being boring just wanted to re-visit the argument for voluntary withdrawal of pre-Harvest use.
I know we are all lobbying everyone to argue that the chemical is safe and should be re-registered but I fear that the head of steam building up supporting the fact that the general public think that it is unsafe is gaining unstoppable momentum.
My regenerative arable system relies heavily on being able to create stale seedbeds using Glyphosate.The thought of a complete ban frankly fills me with horror as it would require a return to the plough and all of the negative soil health and Carbon sequestration implications that go with it ( I know that the plough has been successfully used for centuries and have no arguments with its use in a mixed farming system with lots of Grass, livestock and dung which are effectively cancelling out the negative effects,but it would be a backwards step for all arable units with no access to bought in organic matter )
To be brutally honest the indirect effect of Glyphosate on Humans via its effect on the Shikimate pathway of organisms that we are linked with ( eg Gut bacteria) does need more research.
Instead of stubbornly digging in our heels, surely we need to lobby NFU etc hard to push for voluntary cessation of pre -Harvest use for say 2-3 years whilst more research carried out.
Sorry if this has all been debated already on the Forum ,have not been viewing all threads much in last few months

 

[Two Tone]

It beats me how some people want to religiously go out with pre-harvest roundup on all their crops in what are clean fields anyway. Especially when they think that it will even up the green ears in the tramlines, which the wheels of the sprayer will flatten anyway.

Roundup is not cheap and putting it on pre-harvest will cause wheeling and under sprayer losses. Unless you have a particularly green weed infested crop, why bother?

It seems to me that some people just love sitting on their sprayers and spending unnecessary amounts on chems.

Many agronomists don't help and actively encourage overspend on Chems. Our neighbour was encouraged by his agronomist to make 6 more spray applications on his rape, 2 more on his barley and 1 more on his wheat than us. He uses our sprayer and I do the combining for both his and our farm. So far our Rape and W Barley have out-yielded his and with (very!) significantly less spend.

 

[Breakthru]

At the risk of being boring just wanted to re-visit the argument for voluntary withdrawal of pre-Harvest use.
I know we are all lobbying everyone to argue that the chemical is safe and should be re-registered but I fear that the head of steam building up supporting the fact that the general public think that it is unsafe is gaining unstoppable momentum.
My regenerative arable system relies heavily on being able to create stale seedbeds using Glyphosate.The thought of a complete ban frankly fills me with horror as it would require a return to the plough and all of the negative soil health and Carbon sequestration implications that go with it ( I know that the plough has been successfully used for centuries and have no arguments with its use in a mixed farming system with lots of Grass, livestock and dung which are effectively cancelling out the negative effects,but it would be a backwards step for all arable units with no access to bought in organic matter )
To be brutally honest the indirect effect of Glyphosate on Humans via its effect on the Shikimate pathway of organisms that we are linked with ( eg Gut bacteria) does need more research.
Instead of stubbornly digging in our heels, surely we need to lobby NFU etc hard to push for voluntary cessation of pre -Harvest use for say 2-3 years whilst more research carried out.
Sorry if this has all been debated already on the Forum ,have not been viewing all threads much in last few months

Good post, there is something unexplained going on and I am about to post on the Groundswell thread some of what was discussed in the form of the notes I took as apparently there is a problem re fear of litigation from one especially who spoke quite controversially. His view was Glypho has got 3 years max due to your above reasoning and I suggested the same thing which was lets be prepared to stop direct applcn to food crops to preserve the weed control.
It was mooted that like UK cancer is now 1 in 3 but in RR soya areas where they are sprayed 3 times in growing season with glypho it is now nearing 1 in 2 with forecasts of 1 in 1. Everybody with cancer must make any sceptic just a bit doubtful. I am not totally convinced but open minded enough to read the runes. I am 6'1 BMI 25, with a bus pass, and look after myself and what I eat and the Groundswell talks were very illuminating on the basis that I regard life as a big jigsaw and some of those talks filled in a few of the missing spaces.

 

[Breakthru]

Notes from Groundswell, don't shoot the messenger but if my interpretations differ from others that were present and or you can fill in the spaces speak up.
Nutrient density of food re health.
Ammon - Nitrate ratio should be 3:1. Ideas about vertical farms supplying hydroponic food. It is crap with N - A ratio 3:1 wrong way round.
74000 tonnes / ha N in atmosphere.
Recipe for free N. Correct Calcium : Magnesium ratio needed for O2
Adequate soluble phosphate ATP ? Tri Phosphate.
Soluble Iron Humic acid.
0.5ppm Molybdenum part of nitrogen enzyme
0.2ppm Cobalt ( mothers milk for nitrogen fixers)
Compost Teas, Nutrilife Micro Force Bio N, Bio Plex

Calcium, big ionic - flocculates the clay.
Magnesium for chlorophyll management.
Sandy soil 3:1 Ca Mg ratio Clay 7:1
Nitrogen fixers need oxygen
Mycoryzial fungi release phosphate.
Cannot convert Nitrogen to protein without adequate molybdenum.
N deficiency lower leaves yellow as it is mobile and plant moves it up.
Sulphur deficiency top leaves yellow as it is immobile in the plant.
Potassium Sulphate best form of K. 100ppm Silica for K utilisation.
Urea stabilisation, Zeolite (OZ) Exact molecular size to trap N & P.

Humic Acid, Urea and Humic acid perfect partners, less volatilisation and leaching. 30% + better uptake.
Humic acid 1:20 ratio, 5% for every 100kg urea
5kg NTS soluble Humate granules.
Humic acid is microbial food and root stimulant.
Solubor compatible with Humic acid. Soil conditioner, powerful chelating agent
Boron min 1ppm in soil to use N ( Calcium Boron)
Urea begins life as an amine, converted to Ammonium N in soil then back to amine in plant.
Foliar urea enters plant as an amine more easily converted to protein
6.4ph Ideal
Organic systems use too much copper.
Cuba 10kg urea sprayed per week. High Mg soils need 50% more N.
Albrecht was silenced by the US fert industry who gave $2million dollars per year to the university to sideline him. Best soil analysis system by far.
That's about half the notes so far will post the rest after I decipher my doctors scrawl handwriting.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Notes from Groundswell, don't shoot the messenger but if my interpretations differ from others that were present and or you can fill in the spaces speak up.
Nutrient density of food re health.
Ammon - Nitrate ratio should be 3:1. Ideas about vertical farms supplying hydroponic food. It is crap with N - A ratio 3:1 wrong way round.
74000 tonnes / ha N in atmosphere.
Recipe for free N. Correct Calcium : Magnesium ratio needed for O2
Adequate soluble phosphate ATP ? Tri Phosphate.
Soluble Iron Humic acid.
0.5ppm Molybdenum part of nitrogen enzyme
0.2ppm Cobalt ( mothers milk for nitrogen fixers)
Compost Teas, Nutrilife Micro Force Bio N, Bio Plex

Calcium, big ionic - flocculates the clay.
Magnesium for chlorophyll management.
Sandy soil 3:1 Ca Mg ratio Clay 7:1
Nitrogen fixers need oxygen
Mycoryzial fungi release phosphate.
Cannot convert Nitrogen to protein without adequate molybdenum.
N deficiency lower leaves yellow as it is mobile and plant moves it up.
Sulphur deficiency top leaves yellow as it is immobile in the plant.
Potassium Sulphate best form of K. 100ppm Silica for K utilisation.
Urea stabilisation, Zeolite (OZ) Exact molecular size to trap N & P.

Humic Acid, Urea and Humic acid perfect partners, less volatilisation and leaching. 30% + better uptake.
Humic acid 1:20 ratio, 5% for every 100kg urea
5kg NTS soluble Humate granules.
Humic acid is microbial food and root stimulant.
Solubor compatible with Humic acid. Soil conditioner, powerful chelating agent
Boron min 1ppm in soil to use N ( Calcium Boron)
Urea begins life as an amine, converted to Ammonium N in soil then back to amine in plant.
Foliar urea enters plant as an amine more easily converted to protein
6.4ph Ideal
Organic systems use too much copper.
Cuba 10kg urea sprayed per week. High Mg soils need 50% more N.
Albrecht was silenced by the US fert industry who gave $2million dollars per year to the university to sideline him. Best soil analysis system by far.
That's about half the notes so far will post the rest after I decipher my doctors scrawl handwriting.

Interesting but we need to know how he comes to his conclusions on some issues. Albrecht was not silenced by the way its a popular myth. Albrecht system tends to be quite expensive too. I'm open minded but if someone says something that may be controversial it needs to have substance behind it in order for us to understand why the speaker has come to that conclusion.

All I'm saying is Graeme Sait has a product to sell too....
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/sustainable-agriculture-fertilisers

 

[SilliamWhale]

Good post, there is something unexplained going on and I am about to post on the Groundswell thread some of what was discussed in the form of the notes I took as apparently there is a problem re fear of litigation from one especially who spoke quite controversially. His view was Glypho has got 3 years max due to your above reasoning and I suggested the same thing which was lets be prepared to stop direct applcn to food crops to preserve the weed control.
It was mooted that like UK cancer is now 1 in 3 but in RR soya areas where they are sprayed 3 times in growing season with glypho it is now nearing 1 in 2 with forecasts of 1 in 1. Everybody with cancer must make any sceptic just a bit doubtful. I am not totally convinced but open minded enough to read the runes. I am 6'1 BMI 25, with a bus pass, and look after myself and what I eat and the Groundswell talks were very illuminating on the basis that I regard life as a big jigsaw and some of those talks filled in a few of the missing spaces.

Correlation is not Causation. We are getting better at diagnosing cancers early too.

 

[SilliamWhale]

To be brutally honest the indirect effect of Glyphosate on Humans via its effect on the Shikimate pathway of organisms that we are linked with ( eg Gut bacteria) does need more research.
Instead of stubbornly digging in our heels, surely we need to lobby NFU etc hard to push for voluntary cessation of pre -Harvest use for say 2-3 years whilst more research carried out.
Sorry if this has all been debated already on the Forum ,have not been viewing all threads much in last few months

I think there's a better practical reason for not using pre harvest roundup related to trying to maintain its efficacy out of crop. So broadly speaking I'm with you

 

[Breakthru]

Interesting but we need to know how he comes to his conclusions on some issues. Albrecht was not silenced by the way its a popular myth. Albrecht system tends to be quite expensive too. I'm open minded but if someone says something that may be controversial it needs to have substance behind it in order for us to understand why the speaker has come to that conclusion.

All I'm saying is Graeme Sait has a product to sell too....
http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/sustainable-agriculture-fertilisers

Not everybody that sells is a con man. He has product to sell but a lot of what he said had nothing directly to do with what he was selling, such as prostate cancer.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Not everybody that sells is a con man. He has product to sell but a lot of what he said had nothing directly to do with what he was selling, such as prostate cancer.

I'm not saying he's a conman or that he's wrong, what I'm saying is that if you going to say something under the guise of science then be prepared to need to back it up. I'm all ears on this but if someone makes a claim based on science then they must be prepared to give some reasoning.

 

[Breakthru]

I'm not saying he's a conman or that he's wrong, what I'm saying is that if you going to say something under the guise of science then be prepared to need to back it up. I'm all ears on this but if someone makes a claim based on science then they must be prepared to give some reasoning.

His talks were very good and seemed to join up some of the spaces in what we already know about. It is a shame if he is not going to allow even edited tapes of his talks to be released here. Like you I am not totally convinced but I agreed with much of what he said because it aligned with information from other sources.

 

[SilliamWhale]

His talks were very good and seemed to join up some of the spaces in what we already know about. It is a shame if he is not going to allow even edited tapes of his talks to be released here. Like you I am not totally convinced but I agreed with much of what he said because it aligned with information from other sources.

But what i feel is missing is the hard data behind claims. Currently there is a glyphosate gives you autism type theory doing the rounds. Dig a little deeper though and the way they get the data is very perplexing.

If someone says you get a 30% better uptake of urea using humic acid applications (which he sells by the way) I want to know how they got this data/conclusion before using the product. 30% is not an insignificant amount.

 

[York]

good to have his talks recorded. Unfortunately not the talk under the soil tent.
I understand why he doesn't want it to be published. Don't want to be made liable.
As always, the proof is on how it works, so do your own check strips. We are doing now more tissue samples on chemical applied & check strip. Interesting comparisons. Will take some more to be stable conclusive.
York-Th.
p.s. it's known that you can make a crop survive a Glyphosate application when certain stuff is applied within a couple of days after Glyphosate application.