Going to have a Swale of a time! (I hope)

[Woolless]

I think 'no feed no fert' is a lot easier in an area where the grass grows for much of the winter. I think a lot of those further south just don't understand that. I use no fert and not much cake but buy in a fair bit of fodder. If I stocked at what breeding stock the farm could carry over winter, I would be very understocked in June.

However, much easier with (native type) cattle, there are folk that simply shut off what gets in front of the stock early summer and strip graze it later. Would this type of system be more profitable? Possibly

 

[Woolless]

It does make a difference when the grass doesn’t start growing till the middle of May in a good year and June in a bad one. I have a friend who went all out on rotational grazing but has now gone back to set stocking as he felt the rotational grazing compromised lamb growth rates too much. When I hear the conversations about these grazing systems it is always about the amount of grass they can grow very rarely about the stock. I’ve rotationaly grazed for the last 40 years but it was always to maximise stock performance.

Quite a few of the clever rotational grazing converts are tweaking their systems now, having realised that you grow more grass but sheep performance in particular suffers when they force them to graze down to the desired residual. Set stocking for some of the season and leader/follower with cows doing the hard yards are interesting variants.

 

[Top Tip.]

The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of upland farms to have any chance of being profitable have to buy more inputs than more fertile lowland ground. If you have those higher costs then going for higher output is the only strategy that has a chance of working. These sorts of farms don't have the options there are in other areas so they are much more difficult to farm. This is why a lot of quality stock come out of the hills and the people who produce them work very hard at it. I think that after a period of pain things will come good again, producing store and breeding stock from upland farms and producing finished stock in the lowlands, is the most efficient overall way of producing food in this country and with a growing population, extreme weather and short sighted ignorant government policies it is going to be needed.

I'm old enough to have been working in the 1970's, (although still at school for part of the time ) when oil shot up, feed shot up and calves were virtually unsaleable. In fact the price collapse that happened then hasn't happened this time and I don't think it will. At that time the progressive way to survive was similar to now, low inputs, out winter, catch crops etc. It didn't last because for most parts of this country the weather and land type just isn't suitable so another way has to be found.

Good post ,I also have similar memories of the seventies. One particular memory I have is of the October sales on the west coast when hundreds if not thousands of cows were sold out of the hills because folk couldn’t afford to winter them . I can still remember how sad I felt seeing this happen because I was watching a way of life disappearing never to return. I fear for this October unless the beef price takes a significant rise.

 

[livestock 1]

Simple economics any old fool can run stock numbers down to a bare minimum that can just ‘run about’ all winter here and there on no feed. When June arrives the farm will be only 50% stocked if that so basically running on half power for the sake of a bit of fert and a bit of feed.
Easy for folks to confuse cash flow with profitability
Difficult cash flow often promotes profit or it does here anyway

 

[glasshouse]

Good post ,I also have similar memories of the seventies. One particular memory I have is of the October sales on the west coast when hundreds if not thousands of cows were sold out of the hills because folk couldn’t afford to winter them . I can still remember how sad I felt seeing this happen because I was watching a way of life disappearing never to return. I fear for this October unless the beef price takes a significant rise.

Oct 1974 was a disaster for selling store cattle
Similiar situation to today, and store prices were on the floor.
We fortuneately had just built a new cattle shed which paid for itself in a year

 

[Anymulewilldo]

It definitely has to be touch and go for a lot of hill farms the way things are going. We're fortunate to have a secondary (primary?) Income stream alongside the livestock.
View attachment 1036237

But too be fair… there are too many hill farms now living on the environment sub and keeping vastly sub standard livestock.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

But too be fair… there are too many hill farms now living on the environment sub and keeping vastly sub standard livestock.

They're the ones that will be in trouble, the better farmers unless they are to heavily borrowed will find a way

 

[Anymulewilldo]

They're the ones that will be in trouble, the better farmers unless they are to heavily borrowed will find a way

That’s what I reckon. If you’ve kept your stock quality (whatever breed or composite) you stand a good chance of being ok

 

[livestock 1]

There’s no rhyme nor reason to any of this. I know excellent hill farmers who have won many significant prizes for their stock have to sell their farms.
On the other hand I also know fellas wit average or poor stock who buy farms and land and progress well ahead of anyone else. The best example of this is a one who never buys a tup unless he’s changing breed.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Simple economics any old fool can run stock numbers down to a bare minimum that can just ‘run about’ all winter here and there on no feed. When June arrives the farm will be only 50% stocked if that so basically running on half power for the sake of a bit of fert and a bit of feed.
Easy for folks to confuse cash flow with profitability
Difficult cash flow often promotes profit or it does here anyway

Adjusting stock numbers to carrying capacity is key to profitability.

In winter, this can be done by bringing carrying capacity up (buying in feed, growing a forage crop for winter grazing) or destocking (renting acres somewhere else, or selling stock). The answer will vary for each farm.

A properly managed grazing system will grow more grass during the growing season, allowing some winter feeding to be done by home grown conserved forage and/or deferred grazing. This will reduce cost of wintering.

 

[unlacedgecko]

There’s no rhyme nor reason to any of this. I know excellent hill farmers who have won many significant prizes for their stock have to sell their farms.
On the other hand I also know fellas wit average or poor stock who buy farms and land and progress well ahead of anyone else. The best example of this is a one who never buys a tup unless he’s changing breed.

Nicely demonstrates it's profit that matters, not turnover.

 

[livestock 1]

But too be fair… there are too many hill farms now living on the environment sub and keeping vastly sub standard livestock.

Most of the enviro subs are reduced by over 50% and the payments are mainly linked to capital works which some are helpful to the farm some are not

 

[Nithsdale]

Nicely demonstrates it's profit that matters, not turnover.

"Profit is sanity, turnover is vanity" ~ Nithsdale Farmer. 2022

 

[livestock 1]

Adjusting stock numbers to carrying capacity is key to profitability.

In winter, this can be done by bringing carrying capacity up (buying in feed, growing a forage crop for winter grazing) or destocking (renting acres somewhere else, or selling stock). The answer will vary for each farm.

A properly managed grazing system will grow more grass during the growing season, allowing some winter feeding to be done by home grown conserved forage and/or deferred grazing. This will rescue cost of wintering.

With the greatest respect it wouldn’t be the best advice for you to come from an area which grows grass eight months out of twelve and tell someone how they should be farming in an area which grows grass five months out of twelve
Most folks that have any success moving from one area to another make moves for the better land not the worst

 

[Woolless]

"Profit is sanity, turnover is vanity" ~ Nithsdale Farmer. 2022

I knew it was someone dead clever that had coined that phrase, just couldn't think who it was

 

[livestock 1]

Adjusting stock numbers to carrying capacity is key to profitability.

In winter, this can be done by bringing carrying capacity up (buying in feed, growing a forage crop for winter grazing) or destocking (renting acres somewhere else, or selling stock). The answer will vary for each farm.

A properly managed grazing system will grow more grass during the growing season, allowing some winter feeding to be done by home grown conserved forage and/or deferred grazing. This will rescue cost of wintering.

Sometimes deffered grazing works sometimes it doesn’t
I’ve saved grass many a time into November to loose it to bad weather
The worst example was 16 weeks of snow and all saved was lost

 

[unlacedgecko]

Quite a few of the clever rotational grazing converts are tweaking their systems now, having realised that you grow more grass but sheep performance in particular suffers when they force them to graze down to the desired residual. Set stocking for some of the season and leader/follower with cows doing the hard yards are interesting variants.

Weaned lambs, then ewes with lambs at foot at the 2 most sensitive stock classes. Forage quality is key to growth rates.

These stock classes definitely should not be used to set residual. If grass growth means it's getting away from these stock classes then the excess area should be shut up for making preserved forage or deferred grazing.

If residuals need to be reset after a graze by growing lambs (either weaned or at foot) it should be done mechanically (topping) or by a more robust stock class (dry sheep or suck cows). On an all sheep system gimmering ewe hoggs maybe used.

 

[unlacedgecko]

Sometimes deffered grazing works sometimes it doesn’t
I’ve saved grass many a time into November to loose it to bad weather
The worst example was 16 weeks of snow and all saved was lost

Why was it lost? What stock class were you looking to feed it to?

Given my geographic location I favour renting more acres for wintering rather than trying deferred grazing. Although I have used it previously, feed quality is often an issue, so the stock class should be chosen with care.

 

[livestock 1]

Why was it lost? What stock class were you looking to feed it to?

Given my geographic location I favour renting more acres for wintering rather than trying deferred grazing. Although I have used it previously, feed quality is often an issue, so the stock class should be chosen with care.

Once grass is covered with snow for so long frozen and wet it disappears back into the ground and cannot be grazed
It’s difficult to explain how harsh the conditions are to anyone who hasn’t experienced it which we deal with every day and think nothing about doing it
Hence my earlier comment which wasn’t a dig but has to be said as it’s a very relevant fact

 

[unlacedgecko]

Once grass is covered with snow for so long frozen and wet it disappears back into the ground and cannot be grazed
It’s difficult to explain how harsh the conditions are to anyone who hasn’t experienced it which we deal with every day and think nothing about doing it
Hence my earlier comment which wasn’t a dig but has to be said as it’s a very relevant fact

I've lambed in Angus and had snow in May.

If I could find the right opportunity I'd happily move to an upland/mountain area to farm.