Going to have a Swale of a time! (I hope)

Top Tip.

Member
Location
highland
Why was it lost? What stock class were you looking to feed it to?

Given my geographic location I favour renting more acres for wintering rather than trying deferred grazing. Although I have used it previously, feed quality is often an issue, so the stock class should be chosen with care.
I remember being at a meeting where we were being given a talk on grassland management and the guy who was from Southern Ireland was telling us how important it was to leave grass covers for the winter. When I told him that the opposite was true up here and if you wanted your grass to survive the winter you grazed it to the boards to avoid snow rot and frost kill he could not understand this concept and tried to argue his case, it was only when other members of the audience backed up my comments that he realised that I was serious. This to me demonstrates the danger of letting experts dictate what should be done when in reality they only have knowledge of their own geographical area.
 

Moors Lad

Member
Location
N Yorks
Why was it lost? What stock class were you looking to feed it to?
Asking a question like that I wonder if you live in the real world - if you`ve wet land that then gets covered with snow for 16 weeks it`s pretty sh*te at the end of it - "deferred" grazing is not a reality if you`ve got the worst type of land...

If I could find the right opportunity I'd happily move to an upland/mountain area to farm.
Aye go on give it a go - go for a nice wet-lying spot with the latest spring possible then you can really tell us hill-billys how to do it properly :mad:
 

Anymulewilldo

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cheshire
I remember being at a meeting where we were being given a talk on grassland management and the guy who was from Southern Ireland was telling us how important it was to leave grass covers for the winter. When I told him that the opposite was true up here and if you wanted your grass to survive the winter you grazed it to the boards to avoid snow rot and frost kill he could not understand this concept and tried to argue his case, it was only when other members of the audience backed up my comments that he realised that I was serious. This to me demonstrates the danger of letting experts dictate what should be done when in reality they only have knowledge of their own geographical area.
Even down on the Cheshire plain we see grass covers left in fields next to the ones we graze. Come end of jan full of yellow shite in the bottom. We come off Christmas-end of feb on most grassland and it’s all being mowed now or last week! Heavy crops from what I’ve heard too!

The standing joke at our house is if me or grandad go down the lane and see more than 3 blades of grass we dash back for the wagon and go buy another load of sheep. Grandad used too be terrible for it, can’t say I’m any better. Probably worse!
 

Nithsdale

Member
Livestock Farmer
I knew it was someone dead clever that had coined that phrase, just couldn't think who it was 🤔

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Even down on the Cheshire plain we see grass covers left in fields next to the ones we graze. Come end of jan full of yellow shite in the bottom. We come off Christmas-end of feb on most grassland and it’s all being mowed now or last week! Heavy crops from what I’ve heard too!

The standing joke at our house is if me or grandad go down the lane and see more than 3 blades of grass we dash back for the wagon and go buy another load of sheep. Grandad used too be terrible for it, can’t say I’m any better. Probably worse!
You'll have more grass in the spring if it's cleaned off by Jan and you take the stock off until April. I've proved this to my own satisfaction by being able to house nearly all the sheep from end of Jan and having enough grass to not feed cake after lambing whereas last year was feeding it until mid May. (I know this has been a better spring)

Regarding outwintering and zero bought feed, it can be done. I know someone who outwinters his suckler cows, they only ever see a wisp of hay if the snow is deep for at least a fortnight, they calve on their own and the calves fatten off grass.

That must be the way forward, 20 belted Galloways on about 150 acres. :unsure:
 

Anymulewilldo

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cheshire
You'll have more grass in the spring if it's cleaned off by Jan and you take the stock off until April. I've proved this to my own satisfaction by being able to house nearly all the sheep from end of Jan and having enough grass to not feed cake after lambing whereas last year was feeding it until mid May. (I know this has been a better spring)

Regarding outwintering and zero bought feed, it can be done. I know someone who outwinters his suckler cows, they only ever see a wisp of hay if the snow is deep for at least a fortnight, they calve on their own and the calves fatten off grass.

That must be the way forward, 20 belted Galloways on about 150 acres. :unsure:
Trouble is even if you retailed the progeny from those 20 direct too the public you wouldn’t be overdone for wages when you take into account all the extra time and mither!
 
You'll have more grass in the spring if it's cleaned off by Jan and you take the stock off until April. I've proved this to my own satisfaction by being able to house nearly all the sheep from end of Jan and having enough grass to not feed cake after lambing whereas last year was feeding it until mid May. (I know this has been a better spring)

Regarding outwintering and zero bought feed, it can be done. I know someone who outwinters his suckler cows, they only ever see a wisp of hay if the snow is deep for at least a fortnight, they calve on their own and the calves fatten off grass.

That must be the way forward, 20 belted Galloways on about 150 acres. :unsure:
Ref your second point, it can be done with a reasonable stocking rate but it requires the grazing to be intensively managed. Have a look at what Bob Havard of Phepson Angus achieves.
 
I think my point sort of morphed into a debate about whether folk should feed or not.

That wasnt the question. Currently feed and fert are a bit part of some people’s sheep systems. Which is grand if it works. And whilst feed and fert prices have risen dramatically, so have lamb prices.

What happens with less sub, Lambs at £75 and the price of feed and fert what it is now or higher ? Is it a sustainable system. What happens ? Genuine question.
 
I've had a look at Phepson Angus and it's very impressive. However in some ways it proves the point I was making earlier. If you have the right sort of land then there is far more scope as to what you can do. That sort of system would be very difficult to run on most of the farms I know because outwintering would trash the place. Once you look at housing cows for in some years can be 7-8 months costs ramp up and so you have to look much more closely at output, not just inputs.
 
I think my point sort of morphed into a debate about whether folk should feed or not.

That wasnt the question. Currently feed and fert are a bit part of some people’s sheep systems. Which is grand if it works. And whilst feed and fert prices have risen dramatically, so have lamb prices.

What happens with less sub, Lambs at £75 and the price of feed and fert what it is now or higher ? Is it a sustainable system. What happens ? Genuine question.
They way you phrase the question though implies people have a choice whether to farm without feed and fertilizer. The point a lot of people are making is that unless you are on the right sort of land it isn't a choice. You know the answer to the question, if lambs are £75 a piece it's not viable, if they were £35 would you still be making good profits? Anybody can pluck a number out of the air to try and prove a point
 
They way you phrase the question though implies people have a choice whether to farm without feed and fertilizer. The point a lot of people are making is that unless you are on the right sort of land it isn't a choice. You know the answer to the question, if lambs are £75 a piece it's not viable, if they were £35 would you still be making good profits? Anybody can pluck a number out of the air to try and prove a point
I wasn’t implying anything at all. I was meaning to ask exactly what I did.

I understand many farms don’t have a choice. So I’m asking does it work at a normal lamb price ? Because the likelihood of feed and fert going down is a lot lot less that that of the price of lambs going down.

How often in the last 10 years have Lambs traded at £35 a head for fat lambs ? And how often have they traded between £65 and £85 ? We both know the answer.

For one final time it’s not me knocking your system. It’s genuinely asking if the system which currently works for you will continue to do so as things are heading ? And if that doesn’t pan out what is the alternative. Obviously cover crops and differed grazing won’t work etc.
 
I think my point sort of morphed into a debate about whether folk should feed or not.

That wasnt the question. Currently feed and fert are a bit part of some people’s sheep systems. Which is grand if it works. And whilst feed and fert prices have risen dramatically, so have lamb prices.

What happens with less sub, Lambs at £75 and the price of feed and fert what it is now or higher ? Is it a sustainable system. What happens ? Genuine question.
Just to turn it on its head a bit,if the price of feed and fert stay high, and lambs drop to £75, what will happen to your rent ? At what rent do you think you could survive at supplying lambs at £75 because if corn and milk are decent money then rents are going to rise.
 
Just to turn it on its head a bit,if the price of feed and fert stay high, and lambs drop to £75, what will happen to your rent ? At what rent do you think you could survive at supplying lambs at £75 because if corn and milk are decent money then rents are going to rise.
I currently budget on £74 a lamb.

Coincidentally I’m about to find out. Just about to start paying about double the rent that i currently do for worse grazing, so I’ll let you know in a year!

Fingers crossed good genetics work for me!
 

unlacedgecko

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Fife
There's no cookie cutter farming system that can be replicated exactly across all farms. Nor have I suggested there is.

Use the basic principles and apply them with a bit if flexibility as needed.

It's not a binary option. One doesn't have to use deferred grazing all winter or not at all. Say the usual housing period is 7 months. And deferred grazing means the stock are outside for an additional 30 days, that's a 15% reduction in housing time, with associated cost saving.
 
There's no cookie cutter farming system that can be replicated exactly across all farms. Nor have I suggested there is.

Use the basic principles and apply them with a bit if flexibility as needed.

It's not a binary option. One doesn't have to use deferred grazing all winter or not at all. Say the usual housing period is 7 months. And deferred grazing means the stock are outside for an additional 30 days, that's a 15% reduction in housing time, with associated cost saving.
It’s often about marginal gains. They all add up!
 
I think my point sort of morphed into a debate about whether folk should feed or not.

That wasnt the question. Currently feed and fert are a bit part of some people’s sheep systems. Which is grand if it works. And whilst feed and fert prices have risen dramatically, so have lamb prices.

What happens with less sub, Lambs at £75 and the price of feed and fert what it is now or higher ? Is it a sustainable system. What happens ? Genuine question.
What you have told me is you use no feed and no fert
That means that you can tick over in the winter with a low number which can survive without needing any of these bought in
By the time June arrives you must only be half stocked?
Are you telling us that even if you bought a small amount of either you would be worse off?
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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