Grandfather rights

[YELROM]

So your saying someone with 50yrs experience is a worse operator than a 18yr old fresh out of college with a ticket to say he can drive a forklift

Know someone that does ground works who has lads turning up all the time wanting jobs operating diggers as they have there ticket.
He takes them down a bank side with the 3CX to dig a hole, most of them get offered a job on a wheel barrow as they have no idea how to drive a digger

 

[Netherfield]

I have a certificate of competence as a Goods Vehicle Operator' from 50 years ago, I don't even know if it's any good anymore.

Never needed it as a restricted operator, but claimed for it under grandfather rights in case things ever changed.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

I'd like to see that stand up in court.

There is no excuse for no regular formal training, and a 'mature' person who's been driving a loader for many years is much more likely to be the most dangerous / risk taker.

I think you’re more likely to take risks the younger you are...I won’t be taking a forklift test...just another cash extraction scheme...a bit like when I took the test for moving stock over 65km...never been asked for it once.
Or like when I had to take another test for towing the trailer when I’d be towing stock to the mart for 10 years without it
It’s all a p!ss take

 

[thesilentone]

I think you’re more likely to take risks the younger you are...I won’t be taking a forklift test...just another cash extraction scheme...a bit like when I took the test for moving stock over 65km...never been asked for it once.
Or like when I had to take another test for towing the trailer when I’d be towing stock to the mart for 10 years without it
It’s all a p!ss take

Well you don't need anything, until you need it, and without it, the fines are pretty severe. The HSE fines are now means tested.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

Well you don't need anything, until you need it, and without it, the fines are pretty severe. The HSE fines are now means tested.

I’ll run the risk

 

[thesilentone]

I’ll run the risk

You're choice, but what about the third parties if their is an accident and you're insurance wont pay ?

Permanent disability claims can cost millions..

 

[puppet]

Went on HSE course last year which was mostly useful to run through everything from cattle to ladders to quads. We questioned some areas but of course there is no leeway -rules is rules. He told us we were not being trained to operate the machine but to do it safely. I would argue that the 2 are absolutely intertwined as the example above shows when asking someone to dig a hole. An operator's manual is full of safety warnings as long as you read it but the court will just want the ticket.
The old guy may be making mistakes but after 30 years accident free he should surely get some credit.
A friend went on a quad course and they had him going up and across slopes he would never attempt at home. Asked to go up a steep slope then stopped and the trainer lifted the front to show it was unstable. Doh!
I would have refused and asked for a gold star award for doing a risk assessment.

 

[Mur Huwcun]

How the fudge can the test take all day and cost £300 ?

It won’t take all day, NPTC is about two hours test including knowledeg questions and practical assessment. It’s the training that takes time. Would an operator of 50yrs know his ROPS, FOPS, SWLs, stamps on pallet forks, load centres, de rating values, his legal obligations as an employee and an operator, longitudinal and lateral instability causes and effects, live loads, load placement, undercutting technique, how to deem a pallet fork fit and safe for use, be able to list and carry out the pre start checks, post use checks,how to test the SLI on machine, explain all the controls etc etc.

How many on here would stop, apply handbrake and then boom out to stack boxes. They’re all in the test and all need to be done to show competenc. It’s then all been covered. Young 18yr olds are a lot easier to teach than experienced operators though, they’re used to learning and absorbing information.

Another worrying thing is that’s it’s the 50yr experience operators who jump out with engine running, drive with door open, boom right out, walk under raised boom, squeeze inbetween front of machine and a gate or worst still stand under the boom to open fertilizer bags suspended above the spreader. Give them the training, document it, review it at appropriate intervals and it’s up to them if they want to listen to it or carry on with their bad habits. As an employer they can only lead a horse to water....

 

[Mur Huwcun]

Well you don't need anything, until you need it, and without it, the fines are pretty severe. The HSE fines are now means tested.

And going on turnover and not profit aswell so can be extremely high

 

[thesilentone]

In general I have found the HSE to be fair minded. If someone has gone to great lengths to train an operator, and can prove it, even though no formal qualification/competency ticket is in place they will take this into consideration. I'm not suggesting this is OK, however that is my experience.

The problem is the insurer's, they just need any excuse to refuse or reduce a claim, and this is what drives the demand to be trained by a recognised training provider.

 

[john432]

All I will say,"we're doomed as a free thinking productive nation"

 

[Still Farming]

How the fudge can the test take all day and cost £300 ?

RTTLT lantra 1 and 1/2 days with test/ theory and Practical £240 boy just did it xmas time.

 

[thesilentone]

It won’t take all day, NPTC is about two hours test including knowledeg questions and practical assessment. It’s the training that takes time. Would an operator of 50yrs know his ROPS, FOPS, SWLs, stamps on pallet forks, load centres, de rating values, his legal obligations as an employee and an operator, longitudinal and lateral instability causes and effects, live loads, load placement, undercutting technique, how to deem a pallet fork fit and safe for use, be able to list and carry out the pre start checks, post use checks,how to test the SLI on machine, explain all the controls etc etc.

How many on here would stop, apply handbrake and then boom out to stack boxes. They’re all in the test and all need to be done to show competenc. It’s then all been covered. Young 18yr olds are a lot easier to teach than experienced operators though, they’re used to learning and absorbing information.

Another worrying thing is that’s it’s the 50yr experience operators who jump out with engine running, drive with door open, boom right out, walk under raised boom, squeeze inbetween front of machine and a gate or worst still stand under the boom to open fertilizer bags suspended above the spreader. Give them the training, document it, review it at appropriate intervals and it’s up to them if they want to listen to it or carry on with their bad habits. As an employer they can only lead a horse to water....

NPTC are different (or used to be) as they use independent assessors. so, the training is one part, the assessment is another.

Not sure if you can still access them, but they used to have both the training and assessment schedules on there website. So, anyone familiar with training could take a risk, and just be assessed.

NPTC

NPTC

www.nptc.org.uk

 

[Mur Huwcun]

NPTC are different (or used to be) as they use independent assessors. so, the training is one part, the assessment is another.

Not sure if you can still access them, but they used to have both the training and assessment schedules on there website. So, anyone familiar with training could take a risk, and just be assessed.

Yes, assessment schedules are still available with all the information. As you say NPTC is not integrated on most qualifications and the training will be done by a different person to the assessment. Personally think it’s a ‘better’ qualification than the Lantra day course one and covers more topics with a proper driving test style assessment.

 

[Lofty1984]

Not saying it's right, but it's HSE bread and butter. Years ago a plant hire operator in Yorkshire had operated machines thrown off a site by the HSE as they had no competency tickets. He challenged them to send any operator from anywhere to perform and operate a machine safer and better than his operators. Didn't matter, until his team had tickets, they could not go on any site, anywhere.

I had similar happen to me when I was bricklaying foundations needed altering in a tight spot next to a building I had no ticket but could run rings around the lad on site who had not long passed his with no real world experience, inspector caught me I tried that excuse but as you say that don’t care the certificate is king no matter how stupid it is

 

[icanshootwell]

It won’t take all day, NPTC is about two hours test including knowledeg questions and practical assessment. It’s the training that takes time. Would an operator of 50yrs know his ROPS, FOPS, SWLs, stamps on pallet forks, load centres, de rating values, his legal obligations as an employee and an operator, longitudinal and lateral instability causes and effects, live loads, load placement, undercutting technique, how to deem a pallet fork fit and safe for use, be able to list and carry out the pre start checks, post use checks,how to test the SLI on machine, explain all the controls etc etc.

How many on here would stop, apply handbrake and then boom out to stack boxes. They’re all in the test and all need to be done to show competenc. It’s then all been covered. Young 18yr olds are a lot easier to teach than experienced operators though, they’re used to learning and absorbing information.

Another worrying thing is that’s it’s the 50yr experience operators who jump out with engine running, drive with door open, boom right out, walk under raised boom, squeeze inbetween front of machine and a gate or worst still stand under the boom to open fertilizer bags suspended above the spreader. Give them the training, document it, review it at appropriate intervals and it’s up to them if they want to listen to it or carry on with their bad habits. As an employer they can only lead a horse to water....

So how the hell are you to open a fert bag with out getting under the bag, if you do it from distance when the bag is nearly emtey the wind blows it and you end up with fertilizer on the floor.

 

[DRC]

If you are an owner operator and don’t employ anyone, do you still need tickets .

 

[thesilentone]

If you are an owner operator and don’t employ anyone, do you still need tickets .

THE LAW

Agricultural vehicles, trailers and trailed appliances are covered by the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 (HSW Act), which places a duty on companies and individuals to ensure that precautions are taken to make work as safe as practically possible. These vehicles and appliances are exempt from the legal testing requirements of many road vehicles, which puts the emphasis on the owner, to make sure their equipment is safe and in good working order. As more farming transport accidents occur off road than on, the high standards for road going vehicles should also be applied to those used off road. The Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998 (PUWER) apply to any equipment that you use at work; this can include tractors, air compressors, chainsaws and even ladders. They require that equipment must be suitable for the task, properly maintained and guarded, and that adequate training and information about the equipment is available for employees. These Regulations apply to employers, the self-employed and any person in control of work equipment. This includes the hirer or even someone who lends a machine out. If these vehicles, trailers and trailed appliances are driven on the public highway, they must also comply with the Construction and Use Regulations 1986 and The Road Traffic Act as in regards to road worthy condition. If any vehicle, trailer or trailed appliances is stopped, any defects found would leave the driver and owner liable for prosecution by road traffic law enforcement agencies or Police.

 

[had e nuff]

THE LAW

Agricultural vehicles, trailers and trailed appliances are covered by the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 (HSW Act), which places a duty on companies and individuals to ensure that precautions are taken to make work as safe as practically possible. These vehicles and appliances are exempt from the legal testing requirements of many road vehicles, which puts the emphasis on the owner, to make sure their equipment is safe and in good working order. As more farming transport accidents occur off road than on, the high standards for road going vehicles should also be applied to those used off road. The Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998 (PUWER) apply to any equipment that you use at work; this can include tractors, air compressors, chainsaws and even ladders. They require that equipment must be suitable for the task, properly maintained and guarded, and that adequate training and information about the equipment is available for employees. These Regulations apply to employers, the self-employed and any person in control of work equipment. This includes the hirer or even someone who lends a machine out. If these vehicles, trailers and trailed appliances are driven on the public highway, they must also comply with the Construction and Use Regulations 1986 and The Road Traffic Act as in regards to road worthy condition. If any vehicle, trailer or trailed appliances is stopped, any defects found would leave the driver and owner liable for prosecution by road traffic law enforcement agencies or Police.

So no you don't need tickets just adequate training.

 

[thesilentone]

So how the hell are you to open a fert bag with out getting under the bag, if you do it from distance when the bag is nearly emtey the wind blows it and you end up with fertilizer on the floor.

Like many do, with a combine knife section on the end of a pole.