Granulated lime versus ground limestone

[mushnt grummmble]

I dont want to open up this old potato but wilk 450kg realy do the same job as 2 ton of ground lime

No

 

[Dave6170]

Can someone explain neutralising value and total nutralising value to me again?

 

[Cab-over Pete]

It's just my opinion but after speaking to several folks in the industry about it over the last few years, this seems to be the general gist of it:

Neutralising Value is an industry recommended standard of putting an easily understood figure to the efficiency of any given liming product. Around 50% is the general figure for most standard quarried products, give or take a few %. That goes for lime and chalk. The figure can range from 20% up to high 90's% for a huge range of products from wastes to pure burnt limes which would take your skin off. The key thing is NV% versus price. There is nothing wrong with a lower NV as long as it's priced accordingly because it will take more product to do the same neutralising job.

Easy to understand and to work out the economics.

Then along comes somebody who wants to market granular lime and needs an angle to sell it. They come up with Total Neutralising Value, which they say is up near 90%. The thing is, they are testing a product which is all fine dust, 150 micron or smaller, so it works quickly in the soil. All of it works quickly. Sounds good, doesn't it?

What they don't say is that ground lime contains a large % of dust less than 150 microns in size too. That part of the ground lime sample also has a TNV of 90 odd %. The ground lime also has a range of larger particles, some of them up to 3.5mm which take longer to break down in the soil so have a lower reactivity time, therefore lower NV, but they are still useful particles.

Therefore the ground lime has all the benefits of a high TNV portion as well as the longevity required to continue working in the soil for several years.

So, to summarise, NV is a proper industry standard figure, TNV is a carefully worded statement to sell more granular lime and make it sound better than it actually is.

The NV of granulated lime will also be stated. That will be around 50%. It's that figure, and that figure alone, which should be considered when pricing it against good quality ground lime.

It's no better than a good ground lime. It doesn't work better, because it physically CANNOT work better. They are both exactly the same stuff.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Just to add, have a look at the Agricultural Lime Association website. The association are a completely neutral, unbiased organisation who provide general information about liming products including different forms of lime, how to get best use from them and how to calculate effectiveness.

You won't find TNV mentioned anywhere at all. It's NV all the way.

 

[Hilly]

Get my lime deliverd in walking floors trailer now n tip inside so spreader can turn up anytime and lash on with dry lime, days of tipping outside when it rains everyday have gone from here now.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

That would be nice, but hell of a lot of roadwork for most of my customers farms.

If we are due any significant rain on lime heaps I will go and sheet it.

 

[llamedos]

JT85 only joined yesterday....and that's his first post....! If I didn't know better I'd suggest he was flogging it, not buying it. He doesn't say he bought it!

Reads more like a NT restoration project such as the ones on the moors round here, Gran lime dropped then prill and amenity seed by Helicopter.
Quick fix, just before the Bracken takes over...

 

[crofteress]

can you lime peat ground ? does it not cause a problem with trace minerals/ phosphate / nitrogen lock up ? Is it ok to bring peat ground up to 5 or slightly less to avoid this.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

I'm not experienced at all with peat ground, there being none anywhere near me, but @Mounty may be able to help.

I have heard it's not wise to raise the pH too high though. To about 6.0 rings a bell for some reason.

 

[jt 85]

can you lime peat ground ? does it not cause a problem with trace minerals/ phosphate / nitrogen lock up ? Is it ok to bring peat ground up to 5 or slightly less to avoid this.

SAC soil analysis notes say peat soil ph5 peaty soil ph 5.3 for grassland plus another 0.4 for arable

 

[Still Farming]

This old chestnut again this year ?

 

[Mounty]

Shouldn't be any issue bringing things up to those levels. We lime black silty land (which is similar but not as acidic as peat) up to and including 6.0's.
Bare in mind we're not revisiting these fields for 3-4yrs so need to bring them to these levels at they will drop back into the 5's over this time which causes yield loss on arable.
Can't see there being any lock up on peat if you raised to high 5's. Probably some lock up still caused by pH still being quite low.
Got your boat out yet @Cab-over Pete ?? We're just inflating the dinghys today!! 50mm here so far this week but still raining hard!!

 

[Cab-over Pete]

It's enough to make you strike your granny.

I've never spread on stubble so early but never done so little by August 9th. I've got a huge amount booked in, more FP then ever, but I don't think we will do it now.

Maybe next year........

 

[Mounty]

Pretty similar here too Pete. Only just scratched the surface. Think the remaining land in front of OSR is all written off now. Depressing when so much work starts disappearing in front of you, but we've been here before and we will get though it. Lorries in fields is something I'm trying not to think about!!

 

[Henarar]

It's just my opinion but after speaking to several folks in the industry about it over the last few years, this seems to be the general gist of it:

Neutralising Value is an industry recommended standard of putting an easily understood figure to the efficiency of any given liming product. Around 50% is the general figure for most standard quarried products, give or take a few %. That goes for lime and chalk. The figure can range from 20% up to high 90's% for a huge range of products from wastes to pure burnt limes which would take your skin off. The key thing is NV% versus price. There is nothing wrong with a lower NV as long as it's priced accordingly because it will take more product to do the same neutralising job.

Easy to understand and to work out the economics.

Then along comes somebody who wants to market granular lime and needs an angle to sell it. They come up with Total Neutralising Value, which they say is up near 90%. The thing is, they are testing a product which is all fine dust, 150 micron or smaller, so it works quickly in the soil. All of it works quickly. Sounds good, doesn't it?

What they don't say is that ground lime contains a large % of dust less than 150 microns in size too. That part of the ground lime sample also has a TNV of 90 odd %. The ground lime also has a range of larger particles, some of them up to 3.5mm which take longer to break down in the soil so have a lower reactivity time, therefore lower NV, but they are still useful particles.

Therefore the ground lime has all the benefits of a high TNV portion as well as the longevity required to continue working in the soil for several years.

So, to summarise, NV is a proper industry standard figure, TNV is a carefully worded statement to sell more granular lime and make it sound better than it actually is.

The NV of granulated lime will also be stated. That will be around 50%. It's that figure, and that figure alone, which should be considered when pricing it against good quality ground lime.

It's no better than a good ground lime. It doesn't work better, because it physically CANNOT work better. They are both exactly the same stuff.

good post

 

[Henarar]

can you lime peat ground ? does it not cause a problem with trace minerals/ phosphate / nitrogen lock up ? Is it ok to bring peat ground up to 5 or slightly less to avoid this.

we have spread lime down on the levels, never heard any problems

twas a bugger when the tractor starts grinding to a halt and you look behind and the spreader wheel had all but disappeared in the ground and the spinners are not going round any more, no bottom to it down there, soon realise its a good idea to run the spreader in ground speed and keep going

 

[Hummin-Cummins]

50kg of granular lime per acre raises Ph 0.1 so basically not as good as ground lime but probably has its place on an awkward patch or small patch etc

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Pretty similar here too Pete. Only just scratched the surface. Think the remaining land in front of OSR is all written off now. Depressing when so much work starts disappearing in front of you, but we've been here before and we will get though it. Lorries in fields is something I'm trying not to think about!!

It's as bad as 2012 in terms of tonnage done. We've not had anything like the amount of rain, but it's just a bit every day is so chuffing inconvenient.

I expect I'll still be here moaning next year though!!

Unless all the internet marketplace sales wipe me out !!

 

[Steevo]

It's as bad as 2012 in terms of tonnage done. We've not had anything like the amount of rain, but it's just a bit every day is so chuffing inconvenient.

I expect I'll still be here moaning next year though!!

Unless all the internet marketplace sales wipe me out !!

I hear they are planning to sell lime spreading drones shortly. Apparently with new fangled granulated lime their limited payload doesn't matter as it's so much more effective. Gotta be careful you don't use too much though as a teaspoon a hectare can raise the pH by as much as 2t/ac of that old fashioned bulky stuff they used back in the old days.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

You would make a good salesman!

I'm going to buy a nice, one lady owner Chinook helicopter and beat the Low ground pressure tyres hands down!!