Grass Leys and DD

[Wigeon]

Not sure where to ask this question, but i thought the DDers would be a good place to start..

We farm on heavy clay with flints, where the importance of organic matter has never been better demonstated than in this year's awful crop of spring beans, Mzuri'd into stubble, which averaged 1.5t/ha overall, but did 4t in a few places that were down as grass for five years before being ploughed again, five years ago. It looked like, and was, a different crop.

The irony is that these areas were put down to grass because they were on a cold, cobbly, north facing slope that never yielded... Now, if you dig it with a fork you struggle to pull up a lump bigger than a golf ball, whereas over the hedge it comes up as a single slimy slab.

So, i'm thinking how can I get grass leys into the rotation, make them pay, and be able to DD into them after, say, 2 yrs. Has anyone done this successfully, and if so does anyone have any views on varieties or mixes that will help build organic matter and not compromise the reversion to arable?

Many thanks!

 

[SilliamWhale]

Well I had one field with a brome problem and I put a 24 month IRG into it. There isn't a lot to IRG but it was still quite surprising how well the soil was after it. It wasn't farmed hard - it had two cuts of silage each year and sheep grazing.

But it did give a chance to knock back some brome and give a pesticide break. I'd like to do more of it. I'm thinking undersowing barley with grass and then a one year break ie 18 months may even do a job more than I realised. Or just go straight into a DD grass ley after winter barley for 2 years - will still get grazing out of it.

Making summer grass pay can be a challenge in the wrong area

 

[Dan Powell]

4 years will do far more good than 2 years is what I keep hearing. Making it pay is the tricky bit. The rest is easy. Look at it this way... Did 1.5 t/ha of beans pay?

 

[SilliamWhale]

4 years will do far more good than 2 years is what I keep hearing. Making it pay is the tricky bit. The rest is easy. Look at it this way... Did 1.5 t/ha of beans pay?

I agree. The thing with 4 years is it can start to have an affect on all your other costs. ie do you need those tractors, combine etc. I'm not saying the tail is wagging the dog but its usually quite tricky to integrate some things. You start to think well may as well be all grass or all crops iswim

 

[Dan Powell]

I agree. The thing with 4 years is it can start to have an affect on all your other costs. ie do you need those tractors, combine etc. I'm not saying the tail is wagging the dog but its usually quite tricky to integrate some things. You start to think well may as well be all grass or all crops iswim

I guess it depends on how close to capacity you are with your existing machinery. I probably can't justify my combine now that I've put some ground into grass but it's still better than relying on a contractor who may or may not bring black grass with him...

 

[Wigeon]

Agree it's very hard to get it into the rotation and still pay the bills.

But, is it going to be any easier to pay those same bills without basic payment?

Is now the time to go for it and at least have soils in better shape post 2020? (simplistic I know...)

On the species / variety of grass leys, I'd a thought a mix better than straight IRG, but not sure what else to to go in. I like the idea of grass under barley, IRG again?

 

[martian]

We've been growing a 2 year pure IRG ley for a while in our DD rotation. Brilliant for clearing blackgrass, but not that brilliant for building SOM or growing 1st wheats after (we now break the ley with W Beans). The trouble is you are taking a lot of biomass off, if you cut it for silage/hay. Luckily our grass buyer has sacked us, so we're going instead for a 4 year herbal ley which will be mob-grazed and I hope speed up the SOM building.

As you say, it's difficult to re-imagine your rotation etc with a chunk taken out for 4 years, but once you work out how to make it pay (for us, mob-grazed suckler-cattle are win/win, but keep it under your hat), everything falls into place and you should end up with a very low cost cereal growing regime. Very sensible to start planning now while subsidies exist.

 

[E_B]

Not sure where to ask this question, but i thought the DDers would be a good place to start..

We farm on heavy clay with flints, where the importance of organic matter has never been better demonstated than in this year's awful crop of spring beans, Mzuri'd into stubble, which averaged 1.5t/ha overall, but did 4t in a few places that were down as grass for five years before being ploughed again, five years ago. It looked like, and was, a different crop.

The irony is that these areas were put down to grass because they were on a cold, cobbly, north facing slope that never yielded... Now, if you dig it with a fork you struggle to pull up a lump bigger than a golf ball, whereas over the hedge it comes up as a single slimy slab.

So, i'm thinking how can I get grass leys into the rotation, make them pay, and be able to DD into them after, say, 2 yrs. Has anyone done this successfully, and if so does anyone have any views on varieties or mixes that will help build organic matter and not compromise the reversion to arable?

Many thanks!

We are dairy so have reason to have grass in the rotation and hope to benefit from moving a 1 year IRG ley around the place on the heavier land, using a Mzuri to follow up with wheat. 1 year may not bring as much BG or structural benefit as 2 years or more but at least it should prevent leatherjacket or wireworm problems escalating in that shorter time. It also spreads the workload and hopefully provide good silage being a fresh ley each time. This is our first year running a Mzuri and we tried going with wheat afterwards on a temp ley that is easier working land than that which we intend to use going forward. This has taught me to be more weary of slugs after grass, so we will be pre-baiting as a matter of course and post-baiting sooner after drilling. We will be using DAP down the spout to get it away quicker. We will spray off the grass sooner after second/last cut to reduce the amount of residue we're dealing with; the drill handles it fine but I don't think it helps with the slug issue. We will then spray it again closer to drilling to try and catch any regrowth. Will perhaps be running the coulter wheel pressure a bit higher than normal. Despite the slug issues we encountered, this year's effort isn't a disaster:

 

[Louis Mc]

Dd wheat into grass leys is working quite well here. Due to the lack of options for break crops I'm reluctant to "waste" a bean slot if we can at all reasonable wheat

 

[The Ruminant]

Agree it's very hard to get it into the rotation and still pay the bills.

But, is it going to be any easier to pay those same bills without basic payment?

Is now the time to go for it and at least have soils in better shape post 2020? (simplistic I know...)

On the species / variety of grass leys, I'd a thought a mix better than straight IRG, but not sure what else to to go in. I like the idea of grass under barley, IRG again?

Whereabouts in the country are you @Wigeon ?

 

[Wigeon]

Whereabouts in the country are you @Wigeon ?

W Herts - near Hemel

 

[tr250]

This is my attempt graham wheat for seed into 2 year ley drilled with weaving gd on the 3rd October

 

[Will Blackburn]

I'm not sure of the benefits of a one year IRG ley over say oats, especially where it is cut rather than grazed. As regards wireworms and leather jackets I'm not sure they are an issue before 3+ years grass. I have become convinced that a 6 week break between grass burn down and wheat drilling is essential to take out a level of pest risk. @JD-Kid said all along that it was essential. A dicot catch/cover crop between the grass and wheat would be better to protect the soil as after 6 weeks + its a little bare and its nice to drill into green.

 

[H.Jackson]

Have been talking about this, thoughts are to spray off 3 year, grass clover Ley ,cut silage drill non graminious cover drill wheat on green about 11 weeks later. customer would like to crimp roll long stemed cover and miss another glypho.

 

[Louis Mc]

You leave glyph till a couple of days after drilling either I would say. It's works fine

 

[JD-Kid]

I'm not sure of the benefits of a one year IRG ley over say oats, especially where it is cut rather than grazed. As regards wireworms and leather jackets I'm not sure they are an issue before 3+ years grass. I have become convinced that a 6 week break between grass burn down and wheat drilling is essential to take out a level of pest risk. @JD-Kid said all along that it was essential. A dicot catch/cover crop between the grass and wheat would be better to protect the soil as after 6 weeks + its a little bare and its nice to drill into green.

alot of times it's for 2 sprays to clean up other weeds and to store rainfall
also spraying early before old grasslands turn to seedheads used to see alot of cases of guys spraying too late and paddocks were dry covered in seedheads then wonder why there drilling was poor
pests best treated with spray or treated seed

 

[tr250]

I'm not sure of the benefits of a one year IRG ley over say oats, especially where it is cut rather than grazed. As regards wireworms and leather jackets I'm not sure they are an issue before 3+ years grass. I have become convinced that a 6 week break between grass burn down and wheat drilling is essential to take out a level of pest risk. @JD-Kid said all along that it was essential. A dicot catch/cover crop between the grass and wheat would be better to protect the soil as after 6 weeks + its a little bare and its nice to drill into green.

It is a lot better because you cut it off in May before seed is viable. Then second cut smothers any left over bg

 

[Will Blackburn]

It is a lot better because you cut it off in May before seed is viable. Then second cut smothers any left over bg

Never crossed my mind that weed issues were the primary concern.

 

[tr250]

Never crossed my mind that weed issues were the primary concern.

Got to the point that it's a factor in near enough every arable desision round here I'm afraid

 

[E_B]

Got to the point that it's a factor in near enough every arable desision round here I'm afraid

It is certainly a consideration here, this is a drill cock up on this year's temp ley.