Grazing Peas, Beans and Phacelia

Timbo1080

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Somerset
Does anyone know whether this will be a problem....? Is it safe to graze Phacelia with beef cattle?

Will be drilled this week, then grazed in June/July, but could be ensiled instead if necessary. Herbal ley will then be zero tilled into the aftermath.

Tia,

Tim
 

Flat 10

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Fen Edge
Does anyone know whether this will be a problem....? Is it safe to graze Phacelia with beef cattle?

Will be drilled this week, then grazed in June/July, but could be ensiled instead if necessary. Herbal ley will then be zero tilled into the aftermath.

Tia,

Tim
Why is this holistic?
 

Timbo1080

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Somerset
Why is this holistic?
This is a farm that is following the Salatin/Savory/Brown methods using Mob grazing and herbal leys, followed by mobile chicken hotels behind the cattle. The field in question was due for conversion from Arable to herbal ley, but since the season has been so dry, we are looking to drill an alternative and cheaper cover now, following holistic ideals of carbon sequestration, and a more natural approach to building the soil biota, and then, when the conditions are more suitable, drilling the originally intended herbal ley. The question is whether the Phacelia will cause any problem to the cattle, as we would obviously like to be able to mob graze it before drilling the herbal ley. Cutting it would partially defeat the object, but would allow us to at least get some stages of the holistic/regen ag process started now.
Given that one definition of holistic management itself is :"a process of decision-making and planning that gives people the insights and management tools needed to understand nature", and that we are in the decision making process ref. The Phacelia, planning process wrt getting the herbal ley in, and trying to understand how the Phacelia might affect one aspect of nature - The beef cattle, I can't think how any of this is anything other than a holistic question? However, if the mods feel that it ought to be moved, I'll more than happily accept.
 

Flat 10

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Fen Edge
This is a farm that is following the Salatin/Savory/Brown methods using Mob grazing and herbal leys, followed by mobile chicken hotels behind the cattle. The field in question was due for conversion from Arable to herbal ley, but since the season has been so dry, we are looking to drill an alternative and cheaper cover now, following holistic ideals of carbon sequestration, and a more natural approach to building the soil biota, and then, when the conditions are more suitable, drilling the originally intended herbal ley. The question is whether the Phacelia will cause any problem to the cattle, as we would obviously like to be able to mob graze it before drilling the herbal ley. Cutting it would partially defeat the object, but would allow us to at least get some stages of the holistic/regen ag process started now.
Given that one definition of holistic management itself is :"a process of decision-making and planning that gives people the insights and management tools needed to understand nature", and that we are in the decision making process ref. The Phacelia, planning process wrt getting the herbal ley in, and trying to understand how the Phacelia might affect one aspect of nature - The beef cattle, I can't think how any of this is anything other than a holistic question? However, if the mods feel that it ought to be moved, I'll more than happily accept.
I wasn't having a go, just wondering what was holistic. I think I understand now just I thought you would have had more responses in the livestock section. As an aside I'm not sure the word holistic has particularly positive connotations in my or many other farmer's minds. Though I am sure you didn't decide to use it!
 

Timbo1080

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Somerset
I wasn't having a go, just wondering what was holistic. I think I understand now just I thought you would have had more responses in the livestock section. As an aside I'm not sure the word holistic has particularly positive connotations in my or many other farmer's minds. Though I am sure you didn't decide to use it!

I loathe the term....it's awful.

Sorry if that came over a bit strong - I did take it as a bit of a dig, I suppose. I thought of the livestock section, but though it more appropriate in the "Holistic" section....
This is some work that we are doing for some near neighbours. It's actually quite fascinating & the more I look, the more I understand about things that wouldn't normally cross my mind....I really do just wish that there was a different name for "Holistic", that wasn't already in use elsewhere.
 

Flat 10

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Fen Edge
I loathe the term....it's awful.

Sorry if that came over a bit strong - I did take it as a bit of a dig, I suppose. I thought of the livestock section, but though it more appropriate in the "Holistic" section....
This is some work that we are doing for some near neighbours. It's actually quite fascinating & the more I look, the more I understand about things that wouldn't normally cross my mind....I really do just wish that there was a different name for "Holistic", that wasn't already in use elsewhere.
Well I will look in here more often..........
Oh and don't worry I think I was the one who was out of line.........
 
As an aside I'm not sure the word holistic has particularly positive connotations in my or many other farmer's minds

I imagine there are farmers who do not think holistically - i.e. think about the whole farm when doing anything, but I have never personally come across one. I have always been of the opinion that all sensible farmers act holistically at all times.

What I do find is that people who post in this section, and similar sections on other forums, tend to be smaller acreage people, and therefore have similar ideas, problems, solutions and aspirations to those of my present situation of a a small acreage.
 

KMA

Member
Location
Dumfriesshire
I agree 'Holistic', 'Organic' are simply new names for long established practices like crop rotation that were largely lost in the scientific revolution of the 20th century and the advent of artificial fertilisers and pesticides.

I've gone from farming livestock on 2,700 acres of mostly hill and permanent pasture to trying to be self sufficient (veg-wise) on just over 4,000sq' of swamp. The smaller area really tends to focus your thinking. The other huge difference is that I make all the decisions now that I am no longer in a family partnership and can explore ideas. It is the endless ideas and possibilities that had me wide awake at 5am this morning and raring to get out and do things. The day I don't learn something is the day you can fill the hole over me, who knows, maybe there's even more to learn after that;)
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
There's a nice interview with Allan Savory in the current issue of Acres USA in which he talks about General Smuts who coined the term holistic, very interesting man Smuts.

But back to the OP, you might have a bit of trouble getting the cattle to eat peas, beans and phacelia without something a bit blander to wash it down with. When we've grazed cover crops with these in, they tend to go for grasses first and peas, eating beans and phacelia when other options have gone. Not sure how nutritious/poisonous phacelia is, but I'd say it was an acquired taste, but then so is chicory so who knows?
 

Timbo1080

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Somerset
There's a nice interview with Allan Savory in the current issue of Acres USA in which he talks about General Smuts who coined the term holistic, very interesting man Smuts.

But back to the OP, you might have a bit of trouble getting the cattle to eat peas, beans and phacelia without something a bit blander to wash it down with. When we've grazed cover crops with these in, they tend to go for grasses first and peas, eating beans and phacelia when other options have gone. Not sure how nutritious/poisonous phacelia is, but I'd say it was an acquired taste, but then so is chicory so who knows?

On advice from @Pedders, we will be adding oats.....Hopefully this will tie in with your experience. Off to start drilling now. Will have to drill onto some moisture, but hope that isn't too deep for the Phacelia. It's very kind land, so I don't think it'll have to expend too much effort to push through from a little deeper than ideal.

Many thanks folks, for the help & insight.

Tim
 

Timbo1080

Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Somerset
There's a nice interview with Allan Savory in the current issue of Acres USA in which he talks about General Smuts who coined the term holistic, very interesting man Smuts.

Well, I've just done a little research on this chap, and he really was very interesting. I'm kind of thinking that I have suffered from name stigma WRT "Holistic".....It's always sort of insinuated "guff" to me, and cunjoured up thoughts along the same lines as homeopathic stuff (Which I believe to be a more placebo based thing). I have always seen the sense of Holistic Ag, but the "Holistic" badge has irritated me and I believe alienates by default....however, reading (Basically educating myself rather than applying previous experiences of names and their stigmas), I get the reason for it being so named......IF it had been introduced as W"Holistic" management, I do believe I would have been led by less of the stigma.....Whole-istic agriculture, makes so much more sense to me, by way of descriptive name. It's always felt like "homeopathic" agriculture is described by "Holistic", if you get my drift. Thank you @martian for leading me to General Smuts.
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
You are not alone in finding the term 'holism' faintly irritating, but, as you say, it has an interesting past. It's etymological root is both the Greek holos meaning whole and Old English hol meaning health. As Old Mac above says, most farmers think holistically. However most of the advice we get is based on single track science, which makes life a bit complicated as we're not informed about the effect of our interferences on the whole. I've just been re-reading Lady Eve Balfour's The Living Soil and I'd forgotten how good she is, she's bang on the money about health, from soil health through plant health and onto animals and mankind. It's a shame that the Soil Association seems to have got sidetracked by other obsessions...
 
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