Groundswell Think Tank

[SilliamWhale]

Ultimate holism is great in a conference talk but when using holistic management on a farm level it is useful to recognise the “wholes within wholes” we are working with to keep thing manageable. This approach can make it apparent that big problems are often only able to be fixed by a million small manageable solutions.

I agree with you.

One way I try to visualise things on a farm level is as if I'm managing a bunch of buckets full of water. I'm trying to keep those buckets replenished, healthy and leak free. Of course its simplistic but for me it means when I look at my system, or even parts of my system it forces me to look at how my "buckets" are functioning - are they doing well enough, where can I do better, how can I get more for less etc.?

Of course this is within my current paradigm (I'm simply not ready for the all enveloping change that Savory espouses) - and my current paradigm is still simply that I want to grow combinable crops, I want to no till, need money to pay off debts, as well as what I do on my farm helps me develop my own sense of identity/ self purpose etc. HOWEVER this is light years away from moving towards true Holistic Management not least because my own bias won't let me/ don't want me to. So for me, for now I'm sticking with my metaphorical buckets and I really must get myself a girlfriend and stop thinking about this stuff

A Groundswell Holistic Context could be very interesting for next years booklet though - both as a potential guide for others developing one and because it could allow the event to develop a greater clarity/ mission statement that is clear for all attendees. It will encompass the usual ideas - clean water, soil, quality of life etc but to put a clear context would be interesting. I wonder if 3LM would help develop it as a flagship context? Job for @martian

 

[Jungle Bill]

Of course this is within my current paradigm (I'm simply not ready for the all enveloping change that Savory espouses) - and my current paradigm is still simply that I want to grow combinable crops, I want to no till, need money to pay off debts, as well as what I do on my farm helps me develop my own sense of identity/ self purpose etc. HOWEVER this is light years away from moving towards true Holistic Management not least because my own bias won't let me/ don't want me to. So for me, for now I'm sticking with my metaphorical buckets and I really must get myself a girlfriend and stop thinking about this stuff

To me this is around 75% of a holistic context for where you are at the moment; it may not be regenerative, which is how I am interpreting "the all enveloping change that Savory espouses" but it shows great holistic thinking.

Joel Salatin tells a great story of a conversation he had with his son Dan about what qualities Dan should look for in a girlfriend to suit the Polyface holistic context; Dan decided on 'someone who could dress chickens for sale as well as she dressed up to go out dancing'. Sheri measured up on both counts and is now Marketing Director at Polyface.

One day I will make it to Groundswell, it always seems to co-incide with something - this year it was my accreditation with the Savory Institute.

 

[jonnyjon]

I think we are over complicating Savory's message, in an arid environment, grazing animals are required to partially remove the grasses to prevent them killing the new growth the following year. In doing so they feed the soil so the whole system works beautifully, as all things do in nature if we stop meddling. It is our conventional industrialized farming mindset that struggles to see it, hence the "left field" comments, we think we are clever but we haven't got a damn clue

 

[Chae1]

From over here, it looks like an almost complete dearth of connected thinking at most levels, from the government back down the line.

The main hurdle to overcome is the massive bloating - from the gov agencies, supply chain, middlemen - none of these dudes and dudettes are going to want to be out of work.
Hence there will be huge support for the status quo, again at every level, in my opinion.

Let me know how I can help, and I will in any way possible.

Thats basically what i think Alan Savory was saying. We need to think for ourselves and not at a organisational level. Thats where it starts to go wrong.

Look to biology for answers to our problems, not chemistry.

 

[onesiedale]

In what way?

The obvious way I thought was lobbying pressure, media, getting the message out there and putting actual ideas forward and to create joined up thinking in the current 'systems'.
You approached the question, well . . . Holistically

 

[Kiwi Pete]

To give this a more considered reply, I've been mulling over it.

What Allan Savory is on about is pretty enveloping and pretty "deep" to the extent that it is very very hard to replicate successfully. And I say this as someone who has spent a good few years looking at it and speaking to people who try to practice it. In wanting us to think holistically Savory is essentially asking us to ignore borders, ignore farmsteads boundaries etc. to make it properly successful - that is ultimate Holism.

His central theme - which is not connected to livestock production really but connected to optimum management of the ecology for the benefit of the planet is going to be virtually impossible to emulate. I can see that the principal of what he is saying is perfectly feasible - essentially that ungulates maintain and create a landscape that all other species and plants can benefit from and to think truly holistically you must allow them to move frequently as they would naturally. And that the more ungulates there are/ the more variety for the other species and plants there will be for the benefit of the ecology for that is how it was created anyway. I think its beyond challenging to do though - but I do agree with him that if you can think more holistically a lot of things that are "problems" will fall away. It just depends what kind of life you expect other people to lead etc.

But from the straight bat farming perspective presuming that we sort of want to maintain a lot of our agricultural structure and not rock the boat too much I'd say farmings biggest problem of the future from a Climate Change/ Envrionmental perspective is

1. Nitrogen - damned if we do and damned if we don't as production will suffer and we are not prepared for that yet
2. Relatively expensive Grain in Carbon and Soil terms for Meat but its cheap meat = happy populace. At the moment anyway.
3. I don't see Pesticides as a huge issue to be honest. I think they may naturally give way eventually


But I think you raise some interesting ideas about a more joined up Food/ Environment/ Social/ Climate policy which I think there would be a growing political appetite for. It won't be anywhere near Allan Savorys vision though I don't think, but it could develop into a better awareness of how we can plug the leaks/ reduce the energy/ and get our own systems more regenerative

Cracking post.

Your first paragraph really intrigues me because it seems from what I've gleaned about life in the UK over the years, the very fabric of policy has always been one of "separation" - through so many mechanisms and machinations .
It's thus (from a Kiwi perspective) going to be both an easy and difficult "sale" because the separation is both bred in, but also maybe people see it not working?

The boundaries part.. completely agree, and again one of my perceptions is that "boundaries" hold UK ag back, a lot. Much of it is going to take a lot of work, especially with stuff like bTb, and the feudal land thing, and a lot of other examples.

Down here some farmers are actually quite far along with the communal concept.. things like sharing their kit, and also the combining forces for larger herds. I can think of several examples that I wouldn't be aware of, if I wasn't involved in livestock haulage, but it works well for them.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Thats basically what i think Alan Savory was saying. We need to think for ourselves and not at a organisational level. Thats where it starts to go wrong.

Look to biology for answers to our problems, not chemistry.

It's (again) quite fascinating from "outside" - because there is so much competition for resource, yet the main "competition" is nearly always assumed to be overseas?

I believe the main competition is much closer than some overseas foe, with lax rules and low COP - it's your neighbour!
Unless you are working with your neighbour, you're in effect working against one another.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Cracking post.

Your first paragraph really intrigues me because it seems from what I've gleaned about life in the UK over the years, the very fabric of policy has always been one of "separation" - through so many mechanisms and machinations .
It's thus (from a Kiwi perspective) going to be both an easy and difficult "sale" because the separation is both bred in, but also maybe people see it not working?

But what I didn't say is that I have buckets within buckets within buckets in a big bucket!!

 

[SilliamWhale]

The obvious way I thought was lobbying pressure, media, getting the message out there and putting actual ideas forward and to create joined up thinking in the current 'systems'.
You approached the question, well . . . Holistically

I guess there are two strands. Its all very well thinking holistically but if the rest of society/ your peers/ media/ govt etc don't even understand what your trying to do then any progress is wasted on them. So in a way to make progress you almost have to talk their language to get anywhere - and the more I think about it I understand a bit more about how the reductionist mindset which Savory talks about creates more issues - I mean here we are fretting about I dunno soil erosion or turtle doves or something and micro managing our farms to to tick those boxes (counting our hedgerow trees etc etc) whereby at is most fundamental level the large holistic idea would help deal with all those things.

BUT and it is a big BUT. Much as like Allan Savory's ideas and I'm grateful for his concepts are they practical for enough people? Everything needs such an overhaul, whatever you say his ideas are still on the fringes, and will probably remain there for a while yet

Revolution vs Evolution etc
Holism vs Reductionism etc

 

[martian]

I love that we're all trying to interpret Allan Savory's 'message', a bit like disciples picking over the words of the messiah...he got quite prickly the other night when people were going on about mob-grazing, it was a bit of a 'blessed are the cheese-makers' moment. He has a brilliant plan and is seemingly surrounded by people who are focusing on just one of Will's buckets, or obsessing about what material the bucket is made of (plastic v.s galvanised?)

Now, I know as little as anyone else, but I'm sitting halfway up a hill in Spain, looking across the arid landscape to the hills of N Africa in the distance. The context here is global, we can't pull up the drawbridge and just concentrate on our own farm or garden. We have to include the greater community in our plans, whether it's how we treat our neighbours or how we treat Africa. Allowing environmental destruction just so we get cheap green beans or rare metals for mobile phones will back-fire on us, indeed is already back-firing on us, as whole populations of humans up sticks and head for Europe, because their homeland is despoiled or turned to desert.

I heard so many interesting things at Groundswell, my head is still buzzing. But perhaps the point that made the most impact was from Savory when he was describing a typical man who has to be busy and active and likes nothing more than fiddling about with fences (or whatever) and 'hasn't got time' to pick up a pencil and write down a plan. Ouch! That is me, skewered. Several people said they wanted concrete answers, financial figures or whatever from Savory and he didn't deliver...of course he didn't. He's adapted a military management technique so that it can be used by farmers and graziers to better run their operations. An important part of this process is asking yourself what you are trying to achieve and how that fits in with the wider world, no man is an island, we are all inter-connected. That makes it trickier, but much more interesting...

 

[Crofter64]

@SilliamWhale , you came back at this very differently to what I thought would be the obvious route to focussing people's vision for what is going to put our landscape right for the future generations .

I do like the idea of the Groundswell Holistic Goal.
That in itself could set the scene for the vision of agriculture and food production and allow the stakeholders and policymakers to arrive at that goal, albeit by slightly different routes.

Perhaps a 'Think Tank' in it's true political and social lobbying sense is not what is needed as this would simply be just another pressure group competing with all the others for public opinion. Setting the Goals in the Holistic context will engage people from all sectors of influence and more likely bring less antagonistic ideas to the fore.

I agree that the Allan Savory higher level holism is not what is needed here, we just want to sort out what affects us in our industry.

Most of the big changes in farming practice have started on one farm and spread farm by farm to become the accepted norm. I believe change will happen fastest by helping many individual land managers to develop and live within their own holistic context, while recognising the bigger and neighbouring wholes they are working with. A Groundswell Holistic Context would be really useful as a box to hold all the individual farm contexts.
Too often change is rejected by farmers because is presented as a one size fits all concept which must be adopted by everyone.
Holistic management training is essential to understand what is best for your own individual situation.

Recently there was a poll about which breed of cow was best in a suckler herd. Could not a similar question be posed in a holistic goal context after first asking TFF members to contribute a list . In other words, two threads, one following the other. And then at the end you would have proof, based on farmers votes, that by and large ( this is conjecture on my part)most farmers agree with the general population in what they think is important going forward: family, beauty of the natural world,animal welfare, the environment, etc.,etc., It might not be as self revealing as @onesiedale would perhaps like, but it could be a starting point. It would also be used to demystify for the general population what farmers really think and care about -

 

[EchoesFromThePast]

Don't know where to post and it's also German.

mob grazed cattle pasture microscoped
Rinder-Weide Mikroskopiert
http://bit.ly/Rinder-Weide-Mikroskopiert

NoSecret

 

[Crofter64]

Don't know where to post and it's also German.

mob grazed cattle pasture microscoped
Rinder-Weide Mikroskopiert
http://bit.ly/Rinder-Weide-Mikroskopiert

NoSecret

Just goes to show you that all this soil life we’ve suddenly ‘discovered’ was known about and studied over a century ago. Who encouraged the world to consider soil as just a medium to keep plants standing upright while conviniently forgetting about its true nature?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Just goes to show you that all this soil life we’ve suddenly ‘discovered’ was known about and studied over a century ago. Who encouraged the world to consider soil as just a medium to keep plants standing upright while conviniently forgetting about its true nature?

That's an excellent question, indeed.

It's really difficult to put a date or a place on "it", also difficult to separate the question from mankind's arrogance, the belief that we are at the centre of the Earth's systems, our desire for mastery, control, or is it just symptomatic of the monoculture dilemma?

Hope that's not too deep

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Just goes to show you that all this soil life we’ve suddenly ‘discovered’ was known about and studied over a century ago. Who encouraged the world to consider soil as just a medium to keep plants standing upright while conviniently forgetting about its true nature?

Problem is it's going several stages further with soil-less aquaculture being trumpeted as the next saviour. "We'll be able to rewild all this degraded land and grow our food using hydroponics under glass"

 

[Crofter64]

Problem is it's going several stages further with soil-less aquaculture being trumpeted as the next saviour. "We'll be able to rewild all this degraded land and grow our food using hydroponics under glass"

Misguided.We keep inching towards the right answer, but unfortunately it is quite simple and requires few inputs. Therefore someone dreams up alternatives and everyone jumps on the band wagon. It must be human nature that we always have to complicate things,

 

[Yale]

I’ve really struggled to find the first rung on the holistic ladder.

Don’t get me wrong,I already attempt to keep inputs to a sensible minimum however farming marginal land for me involves making improvements which keep me in business.

If the quality of my output declines then this will affect the bottom line,the trick is to reduce costs faster than a potential drop in output £ wise.

I have plans.........but they are still in my head.

 

[Crofter64]

I’ve really struggled to find the first rung on the holistic ladder.

Don’t get me wrong,I already attempt to keep inputs to a sensible minimum however farming marginal land for me involves making improvements which keep me in business.

If the quality of my output declines then this will affect the bottom line,the trick is to reduce costs faster than a potential drop in output £ wise.

I have plans.........but they are still in my head.

You’re mulling it over, and you do have a plan: reduce inputs but don’t lower production. At least you know where you are headed.

 

[Yale]

You’re mulling it over, and you do have a plan: reduce inputs but don’t lower production. At least you know where you are headed.

Gaining knowledge on here has taught me to question,especially mainstream marketing of expensive inputs.

My worry is that the snake oil salesmen will infiltrate the holistic scene dressing up fancy schemes to bleed money from the new movement.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I’ve really struggled to find the first rung on the holistic ladder.

Don’t get me wrong,I already attempt to keep inputs to a sensible minimum however farming marginal land for me involves making improvements which keep me in business.

If the quality of my output declines then this will affect the bottom line,the trick is to reduce costs faster than a potential drop in output £ wise.

I have plans.........but they are still in my head.

I think the first rung for me practically speaking was the notion of not being afraid to "waste grass". Just extending the idea that grass grows grass really.

In terms of the bigger picture it's the whole idea of capturing carbon and farming in an environmentally enhancing way - regenerative not just sustainable.


Still feel I'm on the first rung though, but with a vision, plans and desire to keep climbing.