Groundswell Think Tank

Crofter64

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Quebec, Canada
Gaining knowledge on here has taught me to question,especially mainstream marketing of expensive inputs.

My worry is that the snake oil salesmen will infiltrate the holistic scene dressing up fancy schemes to bleed money from the new movement.
Besides a useful chart, energiser , some twine/ wire and some pickets I don’t think there’s much else to purchase. The holistic stuff is more about how you think/ plan than about what you own IMO. I think its also about letting go of the ‘ how it looks’ mentality and shifting to a ‘how its doing’ mentality. If you’ve planned( and replanned) properly it should be doing alright.
 

Jungle Bill

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Angus
Gaining knowledge on here has taught me to question,especially mainstream marketing of expensive inputs.

My worry is that the snake oil salesmen will infiltrate the holistic scene dressing up fancy schemes to bleed money from the new movement.

Savory’s Testing Questions, referencing decisions back to your Holistic Context give very convincing answers to any snake oil marketing.
Having a clear context and asking a salesman if their product helps you reach it generally shows snake oil up for what it is.
If you do fall for their pitch monitoring the effectiveness of their product, with the assumption it is not working, will soon show it for what it is.
 
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Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Don't know about anyone else but i think many snake oil salespeople are already on the holistic/regenerative bandwagon. That was my feeling with some of exhibitors at groundswell.
Regen ag isn't immune from ANYTHING, and certainly not a marketing pitch - because we are all human

As above you simply put these questions to the test - will this (for eg) 10 bags of grass seed make me £xxx per hectare?
Is this a best case or worst case figure?

In many cases it's very difficult to get our heads out of the rut we put it in, because we've been schooled!
Schooled that we must work hard to get ahead..
..that we must spend money to make money..
..schooled that we need to produce more to make more income..

HM lets us evaluate our decisions, sometimes snake oil maybe what we need, or seed, or fert etc etc, and sometimes not.
It helps see prejudice for what it is.
 

Chae1

Member
Location
Aberdeenshire
Regen ag isn't immune from ANYTHING, and certainly not a marketing pitch - because we are all human

As above you simply put these questions to the test - will this (for eg) 10 bags of grass seed make me £xxx per hectare?
Is this a best case or worst case figure?

In many cases it's very difficult to get our heads out of the rut we put it in, because we've been schooled!
Schooled that we must work hard to get ahead..
..that we must spend money to make money..
..schooled that we need to produce more to make more income..

HM lets us evaluate our decisions, sometimes snake oil maybe what we need, or seed, or fert etc etc, and sometimes not.
It helps see prejudice for what it is.

Can't remember speaker but his message was experiment on your own farm. Make your mind up yourself. Again making decisions on a personal level not organisational.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Can't remember speaker but his message was experiment on your own farm. Make your mind up yourself. Again making decisions on a personal level not organisational.
The only trials worth worrying about are your own trials.

However it's also very difficult to be "partially holistic", IYSWIM?

A lot seem to get awfully stuck on one particular part, and it's usually on their strengths.
That's the first mistake, we must concentrate on our weakest link - and in my case, that's myself
 

Yale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Besides a useful chart, energiser , some twine/ wire and some pickets I don’t think there’s much else to purchase. The holistic stuff is more about how you think/ plan than about what you own IMO. I think its also about letting go of the ‘ how it looks’ mentality and shifting to a ‘how its doing’ mentality. If you’ve planned( and replanned) properly it should be doing alright.
Problem I’ve got is the willingness to create work by erecting temporary fences and moving them regularly.

We farm around 500 acre split up by a network of small roads in many,many parcels.

This makes rotational grazing difficult to manage because stock cannot be rotated easily between parcels,also micro management of smaller temporary grazing in multiple sites would mean massive extra workload.

It does sound like I’m making excuses however I cannot see a practical way past it.

Currently we rotate 2 larger groups of sheep in 3/4 paddocks,this works OK.

Due to purchasing some extra land we now have the potential to link up some rented land and be able to construct a rotation of around 15 paddocks/fields with fixed boundaries and run a far larger group of sheep together.

One thing which will spur me on is worm control as this is at least as important an aspect as the improvement in grazing pattern.

It is exciting to have these plans but it will take time to implement and install water sources in places.

Exciting times!:cool:
 

onesiedale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
Problem I’ve got is the willingness to create work by erecting temporary fences and moving them regularly.

We farm around 500 acre split up by a network of small roads in many,many parcels.

This makes rotational grazing difficult to manage because stock cannot be rotated easily between parcels,also micro management of smaller temporary grazing in multiple sites would mean massive extra workload.

It does sound like I’m making excuses however I cannot see a practical way past it.

Currently we rotate 2 larger groups of sheep in 3/4 paddocks,this works OK.

Due to purchasing some extra land we now have the potential to link up some rented land and be able to construct a rotation of around 15 paddocks/fields with fixed boundaries and run a far larger group of sheep together.

One thing which will spur me on is worm control as this is at least as important an aspect as the improvement in grazing pattern.

It is exciting to have these plans but it will take time to implement and install water sources in places.

Exciting times!:cool:
. . . I think it is time for you to step out of your comfort zone.
Don't worry, we're all right behind you! ;)
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Can you make some temporary ones, semi-permanent?
That's about the answer to my own issues: do all my subdivisions now and have the rest of my days watching the cows eat, and the grass grow.
A bit of up-front capital is the only real downside, eg today I ordered $8000 of poly pipe.
It'll also save me time for the rest of my life, so it's worth it (in our situation) as it's buying my evenings back.
 

Yale

Member
Livestock Farmer
Can you make some temporary ones, semi-permanent?
That's about the answer to my own issues: do all my subdivisions now and have the rest of my days watching the cows eat, and the grass grow.
A bit of up-front capital is the only real downside, eg today I ordered $8000 of poly pipe.
It'll also save me time for the rest of my life, so it's worth it (in our situation) as it's buying my evenings back.
I’ve got one specific paddock which is 17 acres with a hedge bank but no hedge dividing it.

The plan is to reinstate a permanent fence,maybe I will get to erect it this year.

I’ve also got a creek to pipe and construction an access track so plenty of hard landscaping to get my teeth into.
 

Crofter64

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Quebec, Canada
I’ve got one specific paddock which is 17 acres with a hedge bank but no hedge dividing it.

The plan is to reinstate a permanent fence,maybe I will get to erect it this year.

I’ve also got a creek to pipe and construction an access track so plenty of hard landscaping to get my teeth into.
Yale, Is this what you were trying to do when your digger seized?
 
Lobbying is needed now, not later. We need all pushing to ensure that ELMS will be paid retrospectively.
Most of the big changes in farming practice have started on one farm and spread farm by farm to become the accepted norm. I believe change will happen fastest by helping many individual land managers to develop and live within their own holistic context, while recognising the bigger and neighbouring wholes they are working with. A Groundswell Holistic Context would be really useful as a box to hold all the individual farm contexts.
Too often change is rejected by farmers because is presented as a one size fits all concept which must be adopted by everyone.
Holistic management training is essential to understand what is best for your own individual situation.
Where did you get training?
 
I think we need to all lobby now, so that the ELMS is somehow paid retrospectively. Already, farmers are holding back on doing good as they wont yet be paid for it!
Localised mini Groundswell / ORFC events are worth pushing for. (The SW will have one next year hopefully and there are many events planed in the meantime down here). Please share details of suitable events on Facebook page'Regenerative Farming UK'.
There is money and inclination to support good initiatives such as expanding Bigbarns, local Food hubs, food security, diversification etc. People are learning quickly about food sovereignty too but the learning and sharing needs help and speeding up as does the knowledge around what is working and what isn't in the field. I am working on a website that shares relevant research & field studies in both a dumbed down and more in-depth way. I am also trying to get more training at Uni and college level on regenerative farming but ELMS will be helping that too. One good thing to come out of leaving the EU!
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
I think we need to all lobby now, so that the ELMS is somehow paid retrospectively. Already, farmers are holding back on doing good as they wont yet be paid for it!
Localised mini Groundswell / ORFC events are worth pushing for. (The SW will have one next year hopefully and there are many events planed in the meantime down here). Please share details of suitable events on Facebook page'Regenerative Farming UK'.
There is money and inclination to support good initiatives such as expanding Bigbarns, local Food hubs, food security, diversification etc. People are learning quickly about food sovereignty too but the learning and sharing needs help and speeding up as does the knowledge around what is working and what isn't in the field. I am working on a website that shares relevant research & field studies in both a dumbed down and more in-depth way. I am also trying to get more training at Uni and college level on regenerative farming but ELMS will be helping that too. One good thing to come out of leaving the EU!
A thread on here to publicise regen events would be good. We're don't all do Facebook.

And yes the ag uni's need to catch up with the regenerative approach. My daughter has gone off the idea of uni partly because she doesn't see it as relevant to how she wants to farm.
 

Jungle Bill

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Angus
Lobbying is needed now, not later. We need all pushing to ensure that ELMS will be paid retrospectively.

Where did you get training?

I trained with the Savory Institute, first a course with @Sheila Cooke at 3LM, followed by the Savory online training which was the wrong way round but worked for me. I then did another Savory course in the USA with Byron Shelton, their Senior Program Director, as well as a course with nRhythm in regenerative business management.
I also read everything I could find and talked to everyone I could and have also learned a lot from walking and looking over all sorts of land with a regenerative perspective and becoming happy asking everyone stupid and obvious questions as very often the answers are not what I expect.
 
I trained with the Savory Institute, first a course with @Sheila Cooke at 3LM, followed by the Savory online training which was the wrong way round but worked for me. I then did another Savory course in the USA with Byron Shelton, their Senior Program Director, as well as a course with nRhythm in regenerative business management.
I also read everything I could find and talked to everyone I could and have also learned a lot from walking and looking over all sorts of land with a regenerative perspective and becoming happy asking everyone stupid and obvious questions as very often the answers are not what I expect.
Hi- I don’t suppose you have time to help write a regenerativefarming.co.uk website??? :-/))
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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