Growing seed

Spud

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
YO62
Not something we've done much of before, beyond FSS winter beans and spring oats.

This season, for various reasons, we have a field of spring beans. Its never seen beans in the 28yrs we've been here, so I thought it suitable for a seed crop, to increase its margin. Worth a look anyway.

The 'premium' - £20/t over feed, so lets say £30/ac.

C1 seed cost, £140/t over C2 (if it was bought in) so £14/ac more seed cost.

Tight spec, hoops to jump through, maybe an extra fungicide, more management required etc, prob a similar increase in cost. again.

So for more work, I wouldn't be any better off.

The real niggle is that C2 seed to buy is about 220% dearer to buy from a seed house than they pay for it to be grown, just what do these seed houses do for their slice of the cake? Royalties are nowhere near that much, and theres no dressing or nematode test. Germination check? anything else?

The fact that some of them are charging what they can get away with (profiteering) in a year when spring seed is in demand stinks too.

I wont be growing seed then!
 

Flat 10

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Fen Edge
Not something we've done much of before, beyond FSS winter beans and spring oats.

This season, for various reasons, we have a field of spring beans. Its never seen beans in the 28yrs we've been here, so I thought it suitable for a seed crop, to increase its margin. Worth a look anyway.

The 'premium' - £20/t over feed, so lets say £30/ac.

C1 seed cost, £140/t over C2 (if it was bought in) so £14/ac more seed cost.

Tight spec, hoops to jump through, maybe an extra fungicide, more management required etc, prob a similar increase in cost. again.

So for more work, I wouldn't be any better off.

The real niggle is that C2 seed to buy is about 220% dearer to buy from a seed house than they pay for it to be grown, just what do these seed houses do for their slice of the cake? Royalties are nowhere near that much, and theres no dressing or nematode test. Germination check? anything else?

The fact that some of them are charging what they can get away with (profiteering) in a year when spring seed is in demand stinks too.

I wont be growing seed then!
I have looked at this before, couldn't make beans in particular add up. cereals looked a bit better.
OSR used to be quite well paid.
 

Sonoftheheir

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
West Suffolk
Some one must grow it for them. We used to grow spring wheat seed but at £20t over feed price it just wasn't worth the hassle. Augering 40 ton into a bin then shovelling it out, what fun!
 
Just for the record C2 bean seed v FSS - the following prices are generalised and will vary according to distance from seed grower to processing plant / age of processing plant / quality of bean sample / variety / seed premium to grower / etc.

Base price £130/t
Premium £20/t - assuming the merchant has grown them himself - if they have bought in as grown could be double that.
Screenings at 10% - £15/t
Haulage in £20/t - as with premium, could be higher if bought in, or relative to seed deal
Processing £30/t - depends on total quantity being cleaned
Royalty to breeder for C2 - £85/t - £95/t approx (C1 is £150/t)
Certification - £25/t
Bags - £8/t
Haulage out to farm - £20/t minimum

So where does that get us to - £353/t cost

Profit - ??

If you order early you generally get the lowest price - that will normally reflect the fact that the merchant has their own seed crop. As the season moves on the merchant runs out of their crop and has to buy in, so the price starts to increase retail - not a reflection of 'profiteering', simply that their own stock has been exhausted, but demand is still sufficient to warrant buying in from elsewhere and carrying on retailing.

Merchants require a profit to pay their workers and reinvest in their machinery and when they cannot do that they go bust and merchants do not have any subsidies from the EU to support them by the way.

But please note this is not a battle - we are in this together. We need farmers to make money so that we can sell product to you. The C2 price has to be correct in order that you make a profit. If it is too high, you don't buy it, you farm save. That is fine too.

By the way seed production, like commercial grain production works by supply and demand. If there are enough farmers offering land of the correct quality then generally the premium offered is reflective of that. If the land is not available then the premium increases to reflect supply and demand. So the figures quoted above are not necessarily wrong, but don't assume that they are the same in all circumstances.
 

Seed&Grain

Member
Not something we've done much of before, beyond FSS winter beans and spring oats.

This season, for various reasons, we have a field of spring beans. Its never seen beans in the 28yrs we've been here, so I thought it suitable for a seed crop, to increase its margin. Worth a look anyway.

The 'premium' - £20/t over feed, so lets say £30/ac.

C1 seed cost, £140/t over C2 (if it was bought in) so £14/ac more seed cost.

Tight spec, hoops to jump through, maybe an extra fungicide, more management required etc, prob a similar increase in cost. again.

So for more work, I wouldn't be any better off.

The real niggle is that C2 seed to buy is about 220% dearer to buy from a seed house than they pay for it to be grown, just what do these seed houses do for their slice of the cake? Royalties are nowhere near that much, and theres no dressing or nematode test. Germination check? anything else?

The fact that some of them are charging what they can get away with (profiteering) in a year when spring seed is in demand stinks too.

I wont be growing seed then!
I can offer slightly better premiums and may be able to get you a better C1 stock seed price. Significant advantage of seed beans is that Bruchid and colouration is not really an issue as opposed to trying to get a premium for Human Consumption. On top its better for seed beans to be above 15% moisture. The only potential hazards are ascochyta and stem nematode, but if you have not had beans on the land for a long time this is then very minimal.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Buy in a tonne or so of C2. Sow the headlands using FSS of the same variety. Do the long work until bought in seed runs out. Mark the spot. When harvesting, use the headlands to flush the combine & drier through, then do a quick clean down before setting into the long work. Segregate in store, not worrying too much about the odd ols seed getting in as it's the same variety. Use this FSS seed next year and repeat the cycle. Send a sample off to SAC for TGW, germ, admix & basic disease testing (their labs don't get busier until later than English ones). Only apply a seed dressing if there is disease present or you need Deter. Use seed straight off the floor or bin Remember to fill in the relevant BSPB paaperwork & pay your royalites. No bags, no seed dresser. Simples.

If breeding up a new variety, do as above but do a bigger clean down before setting into the patch where the bought in C2 was planted.

I won't deny a seed merchant their risk premium - hopefully their seed growers all get paid regardless of demand for the seed (I hope @Premium Crops are reading this & collect my fudgeing seed linseed soon!). If they are left with excess seed & have been contracted to pay out on the seed contracts then why shouldn't they pass that cost onto the buyer? They are speculatively growing lots of acres not knowing what the demand is. If you had grown Reflection for seed in 2015/16 and found no demand for it last autumn through no fault of your own, wouldn't you want to be looked after?
 

T C

Member
Location
Nr Kelso
We grow a bit of seed - mostly wheat. If it goes well then there is a small profit in it. The advantage is a quick move at harvest - usually.
I am coming to the conclusion that we should grow for merchants with on farm marketing operations - they will always use their own grown before going to the trade.
Disadvantages are time to keep combine and grain plant clean. Lower temperature drying and segregating crops.
 
Looked at four different seed deals this year and none of them stack up financially.

The seed boys need to wake up because when BPS is gone they'll be on their own as nobody will grow for them at a loss.

I know they'll say but you need new seed ....... no we don't need new seed at all. Every single farmer in the country has got seed in their sheds. That will be used instead because its basically half the price after paying the royalty.

We grew solstice wheat on for 10 yrs with no yield penalty and no increase in chemical cost.

What everybody should be doing now is buying 500kg of a few varieties and grow that on thus taking yourselves out of the seed trade for the next 10-15 yrs.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
We need new wheat varieties every 5 years or so as they break down other than that I'm beginning to think it's all smoke and mirrors, I mean why do I NEED a new bean variety when Wizard performed last year ? We have grown them on and off for maybe 15 yrs now !

Growing seed beans etc the premium
Is not enough for the risk of them not making the grade, especially when compared to a very cheaply grown crop from FSS - if they fail or the market doesn't want that variety YOU are left with an expensive to grow feed crop and the seed house walks away from
It

The gross margin for a successful seed crop needs be be double a commercial one to cover that risk imo


I think Lee is right in that the seed trade has a potential big problem ahead as it's by far the easiest input to cut
 
What we need to see is a true sharing of the seed crop costs.

Farmer provides land, equipment, staff, storage, drying facility and management.

Seed company provides seed, fert, chemicals and agronomy.

The crop sale is then split 50:50.

Or by all means the seed companies can go and buy/rent some land, buy the machinery, put the storage/drying systems in, get reliable staff and then show us all how it's done. It would make great tv!
 

Seed&Grain

Member
How many seed merchants walk away? If your seed crop is sub standard then that is understandable. If the crop is good and not sold for seed you still either get a premium or your higher seed cost back.

Just as much risk for the seed merchant, particularly with the number of varieties on the recommended list!
 

Seed&Grain

Member
What we need to see is a true sharing of the seed crop costs.

Farmer provides land, equipment, staff, storage, drying facility and management.

Seed company provides seed, fert, chemicals and agronomy.

The crop sale is then split 50:50.

Or by all means the seed companies can go and buy/rent some land, buy the machinery, put the storage/drying systems in, get reliable staff and then show us all how it's done. It would make great tv!

Don't you as the farmer already get 85% of the sale?
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Don't you as the farmer already get 85% of the sale?

"IF" its sells as seed maybe

what you get that isn't factored in to most seed house mentality is 100% of the risk - so if it doesn't make seed grade or the market doesn't want that variety that year ( with these scenarios happened to me in the past) - at which point you have a VERY expensive to grow feed crop that will loose you money

then there are issues around segregated storage, cleaning down of dryers and combines etc that all come with additional cost

I love the idea of growing high quality premium crops but I just cant make seed growing stack up

Lee's idea is good - I will rent you land, contract farm the crop and do a 50/50 profit (or loss) share on the job - thats how it should work
 

Seed&Grain

Member
"IF" its sells as seed maybe

what you get that isn't factored in to most seed house mentality is 100% of the risk - so if it doesn't make seed or the market doesn't want that variety that year ( with these scenarios happened to me in the past) - at which point you have a VERY expensive to grow feed crop that will loose you money
Your contracts didn't have tonnage commitments or seed cost rebates then?
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Your contracts didn't have tonnage commitments or seed cost rebates then?

mean nothing if the seed doesn't make seed

fall back on a contract IIRC was usually to market the crop for you as a feed crop....... not sure that's much help really and does nothing to remove the extra growing cost

how about seed merchants put their money where their mouth is and go 50/50 with the farmer if its such a good deal ?
 

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