GS4 herbal ley establishment options

SpottedFlycatcher

Member
BASE UK Member
Hi all, I'm a newbie to crop establishment, especially in these conditions (weather, costs etc) and would appreciate some advice. We are in W Northants on clay/loam.

We aim to establish 30 ha of GS4 (ryegrass, Timothy, other grasses, clover, trefoil, other legumes and flowers) this autumn, following barley as part of our new rotation. General advice is to establish a firm, fine seedbed, and sowing depth is within the top cm, ideally by end of August. Of course moisture is required which is the main issue at the moment - last rain was 1 July (6 mm) and we have had 215 mm all year.

Our past approach would have been to cultivate, roll, drill (Kockerling or similar) and roll again, and have had good results in terms of establishment (early cut in May removes volunteers and weeds). We will probably apply some FYM.

Barley is in, straw has been baled and not much residue / trash left.

Given the high costs of diesel, and wanting to move soil as little as possible, we have two (maybe more?!) options this year I think:

1. Straw rake x 2, roll, spray any emerging weeds, drill with 3m Aitchison Seedmatic (2 directions for better coverage?), roll.

2. Straw rake, shallow cultivate (Simba SL with tines and discs), roll, spray weeds, sow with 6 m Opico grass harrow and air seeder, roll.

Apart from being dust dry now, soil has been in great condition this past year so want to keep it that way, although ley will be in for 2 years doing some repair work.

I realise it's difficult to advise on this without seeing conditions, and we need moisture first, but would be great to hear thoughts on the above, or perhaps whether we should try a combination of both methods as a trial (it isn't in CS scheme until Jan 23, we are getting a headstart to reset rotation).

Thanks in advance
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
First question, are you sure your herbicide used will not affect the emerging seedlings of the herbal ley??

SU herbicides can be resilient, especially in a dry summer...

Straight in with the Aitchison, x2 at an angle... Then pray for rain, albeit the drilling would be best left until after rain! If the drill has a covering chain or harrow, the field will not need rolling.
 

Dog Bowl

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Cotswolds
I have 60ha of GS4 going in this autumn. Some behind winter wheat and some behind wholecropped spring barley.

My plan is to use my 6m Einbock tine harrow, tines set fairly aggressive and go straight into the stubble with that. Could even go half rate and cover the field twice I guess if needs be.

In theory having my own machine means I can pick and chose when to drill it, timing it before some rain hopefully!

All those small seeds are too susceptible to be drilled too deep with much else in my option.
 

SpottedFlycatcher

Member
BASE UK Member
Send a picture of the stubble , i would be broadcasting the seed if is clean , probably get shot down for saying it but s tine drill is clumsy for those small seeds , best way is an air seeder on a tine Harrow
Thanks, here are some pics from 2 adjacent fields. Not much residue apart from in a few places, some moisture is there but 2-3 inches down. Thanks
 

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SpottedFlycatcher

Member
BASE UK Member
First question, are you sure your herbicide used will not affect the emerging seedlings of the herbal ley??

SU herbicides can be resilient, especially in a dry summer...

Straight in with the Aitchison, x2 at an angle... Then pray for rain, albeit the drilling would be best left until after rain! If the drill has a covering chain or harrow, the field will not need rolling.
Thanks. Not sure about the herbicide, waiting for agronomist. I had assumed would just be a Glyphosate application if anything had chitted.
 

SpottedFlycatcher

Member
BASE UK Member
I have 60ha of GS4 going in this autumn. Some behind winter wheat and some behind wholecropped spring barley.

My plan is to use my 6m Einbock tine harrow, tines set fairly aggressive and go straight into the stubble with that. Could even go half rate and cover the field twice I guess if needs be.

In theory having my own machine means I can pick and chose when to drill it, timing it before some rain hopefully!

All those small seeds are too susceptible to be drilled too deep with much else in my option.
OK, thanks. This was my original plan to use our tine harrow as we have had good results with it on power harrowed ground in v dry conditions, but I assumed it would need at least a light cultivation first to improve seed to soil contact. I've had issues with accumulating straw trash in the tines when sowing grass margins, but I guess headlands always likely to be worse. The tine harrow and the drill are ours so we can wait for better conditions, it's more whether we need to do any cultivations or not. Thanks
 

Derrick Hughes

Member
Location
Ceredigion
OK, thanks. This was my original plan to use our tine harrow as we have had good results with it on power harrowed ground in v dry conditions, but I assumed it would need at least a light cultivation first to improve seed to soil contact. I've had issues with accumulating straw trash in the tines when sowing grass margins, but I guess headlands always likely to be worse. The tine harrow and the drill are ours so we can wait for better conditions, it's more whether we need to do any cultivations or not. Thanks
Drills are notorious for going to deep on stubble , I would Tyne Seed it myself or one light pass with the power harrow then roll and seed, if it's trashy I keep the tines up just touching and roll the seed in
 

SpottedFlycatcher

Member
BASE UK Member
The issue I have experienced in the past has been when the preceding crop has been sprayed with a herbicide that "hangs on in"...
OK thanks, I'd better look into this with the agronomist then. I'd assumed any residual effects would be over by now. Perhaps more likely to be a problem in the fields following wheat? Will check on this, thanks. Haven't had a problem following barley before
 

steveR

Member
Mixed Farmer
OK thanks, I'd better look into this with the agronomist then. I'd assumed any residual effects would be over by now. Perhaps more likely to be a problem in the fields following wheat? Will check on this, thanks. Haven't had a problem following barley before
If you used an Autumn herbicide on the Barley you should be OK, but worth a discussion first. Dry summers make the breakdown slow and more problematic.

I first became aware of the issues with SU herbicides 25 years ago, taking out post harvest brassicas! I was reminded again 2 years ago when I was establishing a bumblebird mix after WW, where the Contract lads had gone through in the Spring with something potent!! :(

For my cropping, I moved to some old fashioned chemistry for BLW where a following crop was likely to be affected. In the odd case, I ploughed before stubble turnips or deep disced.
 

tw15

Member
Location
DORSET
Thanks. Not sure about the herbicide, waiting for agronomist. I had assumed would just be a Glyphosate application if anything had chitted.
Be very carefull if barley had a SU on it as been so dry it defo will still be hanging about .I think i would air on the side of caution and give it a a good cultivation and wait for plenty of rain in the forecast then drill . Tempting as it is to just dd or lightly scratch it in if the Su is still active and take out your expensive mix a good cultivation and patience will pay . Downside is you are temporary loosing soil moisture and are bringing weed seeds up .
Here where we have used a su and want to put stubble turnips cover crops or as in this year a herbal ley now in the case of stubble turnips they will get spread on with a slug pelleted on a quad then disced in and rolled . Herbal ley is getting tined then disced then when rain is well and truly on the horizon will get drilled . Really don't want to cock it up for the sake of saving a few quid and not breaking up the su .
 

SpottedFlycatcher

Member
BASE UK Member
Be very carefull if barley had a SU on it as been so dry it defo will still be hanging about .I think i would air on the side of caution and give it a a good cultivation and wait for plenty of rain in the forecast then drill . Tempting as it is to just dd or lightly scratch it in if the Su is still active and take out your expensive mix a good cultivation and patience will pay . Downside is you are temporary loosing soil moisture and are bringing weed seeds up .
Here where we have used a su and want to put stubble turnips cover crops or as in this year a herbal ley now in the case of stubble turnips they will get spread on with a slug pelleted on a quad then disced in and rolled . Herbal ley is getting tined then disced then when rain is well and truly on the horizon will get drilled . Really don't want to cock it up for the sake of saving a few quid and not breaking up the su .
Thanks for this suggestion. Have heard back from agronomist and due to the dry (still only 12 mm since July) his advice is to cultivate both the wheat and barley stubbles before sowing the herbal ley due to potential residual effects. Or wait until spring! We need to cut it next June so decision is to cultivate this week (hopefully after some rain Monday), Camb roll then on half of it use the Opico grass harrow and roll it, hope for rain. On the other half the rye grass is not mixed with the other grasses and smaller seeds so we may drill the rye grasses with the Aitchison, roll it and then overseed into the rye grass with the other seeds in the spring, when any residual herbicide effect should have gone. Hopefully clover will then establish OK if we can get on the ground early enough. If we get enough rain before mid Sept will just go for it and put all seed in the ground. Thanks all for the input
 

SpottedFlycatcher

Member
BASE UK Member
Hi all, I'm a newbie to crop establishment, especially in these conditions (weather, costs etc) and would appreciate some advice. We are in W Northants on clay/loam.

We aim to establish 30 ha of GS4 (ryegrass, Timothy, other grasses, clover, trefoil, other legumes and flowers) this autumn, following barley as part of our new rotation. General advice is to establish a firm, fine seedbed, and sowing depth is within the top cm, ideally by end of August. Of course moisture is required which is the main issue at the moment - last rain was 1 July (6 mm) and we have had 215 mm all year.

Our past approach would have been to cultivate, roll, drill (Kockerling or similar) and roll again, and have had good results in terms of establishment (early cut in May removes volunteers and weeds). We will probably apply some FYM.

Barley is in, straw has been baled and not much residue / trash left.

Given the high costs of diesel, and wanting to move soil as little as possible, we have two (maybe more?!) options this year I think:

1. Straw rake x 2, roll, spray any emerging weeds, drill with 3m Aitchison Seedmatic (2 directions for better coverage?), roll.

2. Straw rake, shallow cultivate (Simba SL with tines and discs), roll, spray weeds, sow with 6 m Opico grass harrow and air seeder, roll.

Apart from being dust dry now, soil has been in great condition this past year so want to keep it that way, although ley will be in for 2 years doing some repair work.

I realise it's difficult to advise on this without seeing conditions, and we need moisture first, but would be great to hear thoughts on the above, or perhaps whether we should try a combination of both methods as a trial (it isn't in CS scheme until Jan 23, we are getting a headstart to reset rotation).

Thanks in advance
Update: we decided to go for it despite the dry conditions. Light surface cultivation on 30/08, Cambridge rolled then drilled into the wheat stubble with the Aitchison Seedmatic on 04/09 (34 kg/ha) and used the Opico grass harrow and Airseeder to sow into the barley stubble which was on loamier soil and less stubble trash. Did it twice at half rate (17kg/ha), tines set slightly deeper first time, then basically broadcasting second time from different direction. We knew rain was coming so used our Cambridge roll rather than wait to borrow flat roll, went across cloudier bits twice. Seedbed was terrible! We were fortunate to get 40 mm rain over the next week and have had 130 mm rain since - thankfully as we have only had total 380 mm since Jan!!
Emergence was slow as soil was still very dry and we then had a dry spell end Sept. We then got more rain and the seedlings got going well. With the rain, slugs appeared under monitoring mats and some grazing damage - followed rec to apply 5kg/ha Ferric phosphate, seemed to work well.
Happy with emergence with both methods, but the ryegrass seems to have done better drilled, as we expected (original plan was to drill the ryegrass separately on the wheat ground and airseed the smaller seeds after, but ran out of time).
Lots of volunteers, especially on barley ground, and plenty weeds - cranesbill, groundsell etc. Early cut in spring should reduce those.
Attached some pics. Will see what it does through winter and spring!



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SpottedFlycatcher

Member
BASE UK Member
Update:

The leys have continued to grow well, although the wheat and barley volunteers are prolific. The target species are all there but we need to cut the cereal volunteers and weeds as soon as conditions allow, whenever that will be. There are large areas of brome(s) and black grass, as well as annuals that we'd expect - shepherd's purse, groundsel, some charlock, cranesbill etc. Hoping to cut ASAP for weeds and then patch up sparse areas with airseeder. On the whole, happy with development but now needs managing to prevent weed seed return.

Overall the grass harrow and airseeder method of establishment has resulted in better coverage and growth, but the soil is better in those fields and there was less trash so difficult to compare. Speed and cost efficiency certainly better.

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