Harder 750a discs

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
I have to say my genuine ones are lasting quite well.

That said if companies like Needham are happy to buy Forges De Niaux discs and import them from France to the USA there must be something decent about them

http://www.needhamag.com/innovative_product_sales/Disc_Blades_for_John_Deere_Drills_and-Air-Seeders_niaux.php

I don't know any Forges de NiAUX AGENTS IN THE UK but they can sell them for £28 in States so we should be able to get them for £20 here surely
Forged de Niaux are OEM manufacturers for JD, Needham’s telling porkies if he’s claiming they last longer than JD discs because your JD discs could originate from them.
 

Clive

Staff Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Lichfield
Forged de Niaux are OEM manufacturers for JD, Needham’s telling porkies if he’s claiming they last longer than JD discs because your JD discs could originate from them.
Interesting they are allowed to sell outside of OE contract as such activity is usually well tied down by manufacturer

Unless what they sell direct is different in some way / spec
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
Interesting they are allowed to sell outside of OE contract as such activity is usually well tied down by manufacturer

Unless what they sell direct is different in some way / spec
Several of the other OEM manufacturers also sell their discs independently so I should imagine that maybe it isn’t in a contract other than the fact that they wouldn’t be allowed to sell them with the JD logo on. The spec’s stipulate, amongst many other factors, the size and positioning of the logo.
 

Deutzdx3

Member
5mm. Whilst I admire your enthusiasm I seriously doubt that you can make discs to compete with the major manufacturers. The specifications for this disc are some thirty pages long, it’s not just about hardness. Don’t forget that in your price you’ll have to include packaging and delivery. Sorry to p on your bonfire.
Appreciate your honesty, no p on my bonfire. I have Cnc plasma sitting idle half the time. Cnc mill that does little work. Need some thing to fill my day. Oh and that does sound like a challenge.
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
Appreciate your honesty, no p on my bonfire. I have Cnc plasma sitting idle half the time. Cnc mill that does little work. Need some thing to fill my day. Oh and that does sound like a challenge.
I’d be amazed if it was that simple, if it was why don’t JD make their own. Having been to several of their factories and watched their plasma cutter cut out the side of a combine in seconds it wouldn’t be difficult to load it up with a pallet load of Hardox and it would have cut out several thousand in one of their lunch breaks!
I was at a machinery show quite a few years ago standing next to a 750 when a smartly dressed Indian gentleman started quizzing the salesman about the drill. His reply to him was that it was no good asking him, it was me he needed to speak too. During our conversation I asked him what his interest was in the drill as he very obviously wasn’t a farmer. He said that he was the largest manufacturer of agricultural discs in the world, so obviously we started talking about disc quality and he said that they couldn’t make discs to 55HRC and that there was ( at that time) only one manufacturer it the world that could, which was something I already knew. The reason he gave me for most factories not being able to manufacturer to this standard was that they couldn’t control the heating and cooling cycles accurately enough. His conclusion from our meeting was that he was going to go away and see if they could improve their quality of production, as he said to me, it would be better to complete with the Chinese on quality rather than a race to the bottom as to who could make them cheapest.
If making these discs was as simple as knocking them out of Hardox with a plasma cutter why don’t all these manufacturers with massive factories do it? I suspect that the answer is in the JD specs. Of those 30 pages only about half a page is about hardness, the rest is about resistance to deformation, cracking etc. Ask anyone who farms a lot of soil with flints and they’ll tell you that when they switch to a 750 they end up with twice as many flints, they’re just smaller. It’ll give you an idea of all the other properties a disc needs to have other than just hardness.
 

Clive

Staff Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Lichfield
much as I appreciate that the spec is detailed I would say most of that is down to the material spec - if that material can be bought then the cutting and bevel part is pretty straight forward I would think
 

Deutzdx3

Member
I’d be amazed if it was that simple, if it was why don’t JD make their own. Having been to several of their factories and watched their plasma cutter cut out the side of a combine in seconds it wouldn’t be difficult to load it up with a pallet load of Hardox and it would have cut out several thousand in one of their lunch breaks!
I was at a machinery show quite a few years ago standing next to a 750 when a smartly dressed Indian gentleman started quizzing the salesman about the drill. His reply to him was that it was no good asking him, it was me he needed to speak too. During our conversation I asked him what his interest was in the drill as he very obviously wasn’t a farmer. He said that he was the largest manufacturer of agricultural discs in the world, so obviously we started talking about disc quality and he said that they couldn’t make discs to 55HRC and that there was ( at that time) only one manufacturer it the world that could, which was something I already knew. The reason he gave me for most factories not being able to manufacturer to this standard was that they couldn’t control the heating and cooling cycles accurately enough. His conclusion from our meeting was that he was going to go away and see if they could improve their quality of production, as he said to me, it would be better to complete with the Chinese on quality rather than a race to the bottom as to who could make them cheapest.
If making these discs was as simple as knocking them out of Hardox with a plasma cutter why don’t all these manufacturers with massive factories do it? I suspect that the answer is in the JD specs. Of those 30 pages only about half a page is about hardness, the rest is about resistance to deformation, cracking etc. Ask anyone who farms a lot of soil with flints and they’ll tell you that when they switch to a 750 they end up with twice as many flints, they’re just smaller. It’ll give you an idea of all the other properties a disc needs to have other than just hardness.
I get where you’re coming from, that said, Im very much an “out side of the box” kind of person. Im use to people saying I can’t do x, y or z. Nothing is impossible. hardox 600 is higher spec than hrc55. It’s not always about how hard they are but some times about wear characteristic’s. John Deere May not make them in-house due to not enough margin for the quantity. They are set up for large production. To change their machines over to bash out a few thousand discs isn’t in their interest most likely. Economy of scale.
I’ll cut a couple out to test, @Clive I’m sure will happily run them alongside his current ones. See if they are any better or worse. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
I get where you’re coming from, that said, Im very much an “out side of the box” kind of person. Im use to people saying I can’t do x, y or z. Nothing is impossible. hardox 600 is higher spec than hrc55. It’s not always about how hard they are but some times about wear characteristic’s. John Deere May not make them in-house due to not enough margin for the quantity. They are set up for large production. To change their machines over to bash out a few thousand discs isn’t in their interest most likely. Economy of scale.
I’ll cut a couple out to test, @Clive I’m sure will happily run them alongside his current ones. See if they are any better or worse. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
As I said before I admire your enthusiasm, however regardless of the quality of the base stock of steel it isn’t going to be the same hardness after you’ve cut it and milled it to shape, especially on the razor sharp bevel of the disc which is where you need it most. It’s alright making a few bucket teeth out of the stuff because it wouldn’t matter if the first few millimetres were a bit soft but a drill disc is a bit different. I can’t believe it’s that simple otherwise why do all these manufacturers struggle to make discs to a higher spec? Don’t misunderstand me, I would dearly love you to be successful, I just don’t want you to waste a lot of time and money churning out hundreds of discs just to find out it doesn’t work.
 

Deutzdx3

Member
As I said before I admire your enthusiasm, however regardless of the quality of the base stock of steel it isn’t going to be the same hardness after you’ve cut it and milled it to shape, especially on the razor sharp bevel of the disc which is where you need it most. It’s alright making a few bucket teeth out of the stuff because it wouldn’t matter if the first few millimetres were a bit soft but a drill disc is a bit different. I can’t believe it’s that simple otherwise why do all these manufacturers struggle to make discs to a higher spec? Don’t misunderstand me, I would dearly love you to be successful, I just don’t want you to waste a lot of time and money churning out hundreds of discs just to find out it doesn’t work.
The steel i have hardens after machining. Starts at 500, hardens to 550-600 which is equivalent to Rockwell 56- 60. It’s a Boron steel which isn’t brittle. The steel that the originals are made from will be a stock item. It won’t be specially made for them. The data sheet will be its composition, By any chance do you work for JD? I’ll only be making half a dozen to trialing. Couple to Clive, couple locally to me so I can look at how they are wearing. I’m only in Kent. Not to far from you. Come have a look when they are cut and machined.
 
Location
Cheshire
It will be the after treatment that gives the hardness. You are not allowed to use powered tools to sharpen shear grab blades precisely because the heat generated ruins the finished spec.
 

Deutzdx3

Member
The steel is quench hardened at factory. On the link Simon posted of the hrc55. That’s it’s specific hardness after any treatment. I’m pretty confident. JD want them to wear as they make good money on parts. I’m sure they could have them made from much harder steel but where is the point in that. They wouldn’t sell as many. Same as fert spreaders. If the whole thing were made from plastic or stainless it would last years. No good for a manufacturer as they want to sell new machines.
 

Simon Chiles

DD Moderator
The steel i have hardens after machining. Starts at 500, hardens to 550-600 which is equivalent to Rockwell 56- 60. It’s a Boron steel which isn’t brittle. The steel that the originals are made from will be a stock item. It won’t be specially made for them. The data sheet will be its composition, By any chance do you work for JD? I’ll only be making half a dozen to trialing. Couple to Clive, couple locally to me so I can look at how they are wearing. I’m only in Kent. Not to far from you. Come have a look when they are cut and machined.
I don’t work for JD. I have the spec for the disc because it was my idea to make them harder and I specified to JD what they needed to be after they sent me the details of their original specifications. Obviously I’m not prepared to announce what those specifications are ( otherwise you might find me dead in a ditch somewhere in suspicious circumstances) but most of it is about all sorts of rigorous testing that a disc needs to comply to to be able to meet the grade, the hardness of the steel is only a few lines of the 30 page booklet.
 
Hardox 600 is 500 with extra heat treatment which is often lost in cutting. Machining the bevel on the disc would not soften the steel as you would be using coolant. However hardness dose not determine its life. I have used steel that has tested 550 and 600 which has lasted no longer than a standard 500 wear plate.
I have never found a work hardening steel that out preforms 500 and I have tried.
Ps. I don't use Swedish Steel any more who make Hardox as it is a lean steel and is overpriced. although they do now own the mill in Finland which is my current supplier.
Deutz can you get hardox 600 in 5mm?
Thicker steel will cause more drag, reduce penetration and not last any longer in my opinion.
 

Deutzdx3

Member
Hardox 600 is 500 with extra heat treatment which is often lost in cutting. Machining the bevel on the disc would not soften the steel as you would be using coolant. However hardness dose not determine its life. I have used steel that has tested 550 and 600 which has lasted no longer than a standard 500 wear plate.
I have never found a work hardening steel that out preforms 500 and I have tried.
Ps. I don't use Swedish Steel any more who make Hardox as it is a lean steel and is overpriced. although they do now own the mill in Finland which is my current supplier.
Deutz can you get hardox 600 in 5mm?
Thicker steel will cause more drag, reduce penetration and not last any longer in my opinion.
Can’t get 600 in 5mm. They only start to produce it in 6mm. 500 is available in 5mm. There is another product that I’m looking at. More expensive than hardox but wear charities are meant to be off the chart. It comes with a price tag though.
 
Location
Cambridge
Well, I’ve just changed our discs now that they are fully worn out. They were mostly OEM ones, but with 8 APM discs which were supposedly 55HRC. Whatever the spec, they have worn identically to the OEM ones, although given they are about 25% cheaper, it seems like a win.
 

Clive

Staff Member
BASE UK Member
Location
Lichfield
Well, I’ve just changed our discs now that they are fully worn out. They were mostly OEM ones, but with 8 APM discs which were supposedly 55HRC. Whatever the spec, they have worn identically to the OEM ones, although given they are about 25% cheaper, it seems like a win.

did they get the bevel size correct in the end ?


I was told Boulgault will have a 750a disc option soon as well
 

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