Health and safety

[Highland Mule]

H&SE can't help everyone.
I heard today of a train company being fined £1m plus costs for a safety signage problem. A passenger died of head injuries when leaning out of a train window while it was moving at speed. The conviction was because the warning signs, about the danger of leaning out of the windows, were not clearly enough displayed. Apparently, the guy who was killed was a long time train enthusiast.....

I heard about that. Not had time to read the full report yet, so won’t comment, but seems a strange one.

 

[Drirwin]

I've worked in farming and in industry and I have to say 90% of farmers have a total disregard for H&S. A few reasons being , the "it won't happen to me" attitude, "only stupid people have accidents" and the "I don't believe in H&S 'cos it costs too much" But the biggest reason (and most easily remedied) is the fact that farmers virtually never stop for a minute before doing something and say to themselves "What could go wrong, is there a better way of doing this?"

Absolutely, it’s common across many industries with a key skill that should develop with experience being situation awareness. The important element being anticipation, thinking several steps ahead to consider what could go wrong, the consequences of action, or in-action. Pilots, drillers, power plant operatives, train drivers etc all get training to develop their SA and I think this type of training, for free, would be useful for farmers too - probably as part of a larger more general farm safety day.

 

[Goweresque]

What’s the age profile of farm workers? If 70% are over 50, then it’s very easy to explain the distribution of deaths.

There is no way that 70% of the man hours worked in the farming industry are worked by the over 50s. The stat often quoted is that the average age of 'farmers' is close to 60, but that is really the age of farm business owners (ie the people named on the BPS form) not the age of the people actually doing most of the physical graft. It says nothing about farm employee ages, or how old non-partnership family workers are either.

 

[Highland Mule]

There is no way that 70% of the man hours worked in the farming industry are worked by the over 50s. The stat often quoted is that the average age of 'farmers' is close to 60, but that is really the age of farm business owners (ie the people named on the BPS form) not the age of the people actually doing most of the physical graft. It says nothing about farm employee ages, or how old non-partnership family workers are either.

I’m not convinced. I’m approaching the threshold fast and know very few farmers or farm workers that are much younger than me. I can’t think - is that sort of thing picked up in the June returns or surveys and reported anywhere?

 

[Goweresque]

Are you really trying to compare the (over) production of a commodity to one of the emergency services? Nobody will die if you or I stop farming!

You were the one who made the statement that a job is either safe for someone of any age, or is inherently unsafe for all. I was just pointing out that there are plenty of jobs where the elderly would not be considered suitable candidates to do the work, while it is considered safe for younger people to do it. Deep sea divers, ocean fishermen, electric line workers, tree surgeons, there's a lot of jobs where strength, agility and visual perception are required for the worker to be safe, and an older person who has lost a significant degree of those qualities would be a liability to themselves and others.

 

[The Agrarian]

Back in the real world, my beef house crush yard is sandwiched between two sheds. There's no room for a shedding solution, other than to manually split them.

 

[DrWazzock]

You have to be reasonably quick to cross the road don't you? The road is unguarded and lethal if you misjudge it.

 

[Highland Mule]

You were the one who made the statement that a job is either safe for someone of any age, or is inherently unsafe for all. I was just pointing out that there are plenty of jobs where the elderly would not be considered suitable candidates to do the work, while it is considered safe for younger people to do it. Deep sea divers, ocean fishermen, electric line workers, tree surgeons, there's a lot of jobs where strength, agility and visual perception are required for the worker to be safe, and an older person who has lost a significant degree of those qualities would be a liability to themselves and others.

Fair comment. I actually meant no job in farming. In other industries they do medicals, screen out unsuitable employees and (most importantly) design the tasks to minimise human reliance wherever possible (ROVs are taking over from divers in many tasks). In agriculture, it seems that the default is to chuck a guy into a dangerous situation and never think if it could be done better.

Back in the real world, my beef house crush yard is sandwiched between two sheds. There's no room for a shedding solution, other than to manually split them.

What about locking feed barriers?

 

[abitdaft]

Correct technique and proper maintenance is the answer to handling a chainsaw safely - the trousers and other ppe are there to hopefully protect you from your own stupidy if you get things wrong.

The trousers will not protect your face, chest or arms from a violent kickback or a fall over a running chain, nor will they prevent a leg cut unless the throttle is released, or an attempt to cut your toes off.

The answer to the "quick job" question is to use chaps not trousers.

The PPE is valuable - but it is the last line of defence not the first

I haven't raed all of this thread but your post caught my eye. When I was 15 I was house/farm sitting ( well more of a smallholding really ) and had a tree down that was allowing sheep to escape. I went into the workshop and brought out a chain saw with the fabulous idea of chopping up the tree. I pulled on the draw string to start the bloody thing and the next thing I knew was that I had a chain saw two inches in front of face. Needless to say I don't deal with chain saws now. When it comes to H & S we all know when we are crossing the line in "cold blood", the difference is when it is in the heat of the job. How many ( particularly sheep ) farmers haven't found themselves on the back of a bike screaming blue murder whilst up on two wheels trying to get the job done? Farming isn't easy and it is even harder to do within the confines of health and safetey. I would love to see a health and safety boffin gather any of the hefts on our hill and still regard it as safe and manage to bring in all the sheep. It's great on paper to describe what you should be doing, but until I see someone cross a steep gully/drain/bank and can tell me how they did it with safety in mind and still manage to bring i the ewes without some of them funking, some sloping away and taking their lambs to join them, well quite frankly they can feck off!!

 

[Bury the Trash]

I haven't raed all of this thread but your post caught my eye. When I was 15 I was house/farm sitting ( well more of a smallholding really ) and had a tree down that was allowing sheep to escape. I went into the workshop and brought out a chain saw with the fabulous idea of chopping up the tree. I pulled on the draw string to start the bloody thing and the next thing I knew was that I had a chain saw two inches in front of face. Needless to say I don't deal with chain saws now. When it comes to H & S we all know when we are crossing the line in "cold blood", the difference is when it is in the heat of the job. How many ( particularly sheep ) farmers haven't found themselves on the back of a bike screaming blue murder whilst up on two wheels trying to get the job done? Farming isn't easy and it is even harder to do within the confines of health and safetey. I would love to see a health and safety boffin gather any of the hefts on our hill and still regard it as safe and manage to bring in all the sheep. It's great on paper to describe what you should be doing, but until I see someone cross a steep gully/drain/bank and can tell me how they did it with safety in mind and still manage to bring i the ewes without some of them funking, some sloping away and taking their lambs to join them, well quite frankly they can feck off!!

Dont you use dogs?

 

[Goweresque]

I actually meant no job in farming.

Well thats the issue isn't it? I would say that the stats are telling us that large livestock and the over 60s don't mix. There's no fatalities involving livestock with young workers, and lots with older ones. I think that is saying that working in physical contact with large livestock is something that should only be done by people in peak physical condition.

In agriculture, it seems that the default is to chuck a guy into a dangerous situation and never think if it could be done better.

The majority of deaths are the self employed, ie the business owners. They are making their own decisions as to their own safety, not being ordered into dangerous situations by their boss. Again, its down to the structure of the industry - there are no other industries where such dangerous activities are undertaken by the self employed, who are working alone. This means its just not comparable to construction, or the oil industry. The director of the oil company isn't out on the oil platform operating the drilling rig on his own, nor is the construction boss pouring concrete on his own at the top of a skyscraper.

 

[ollie989898]

I haven't raed all of this thread but your post caught my eye. When I was 15 I was house/farm sitting ( well more of a smallholding really ) and had a tree down that was allowing sheep to escape. I went into the workshop and brought out a chain saw with the fabulous idea of chopping up the tree. I pulled on the draw string to start the bloody thing and the next thing I knew was that I had a chain saw two inches in front of face. Needless to say I don't deal with chain saws now. When it comes to H & S we all know when we are crossing the line in "cold blood", the difference is when it is in the heat of the job. How many ( particularly sheep ) farmers haven't found themselves on the back of a bike screaming blue murder whilst up on two wheels trying to get the job done? Farming isn't easy and it is even harder to do within the confines of health and safetey. I would love to see a health and safety boffin gather any of the hefts on our hill and still regard it as safe and manage to bring in all the sheep. It's great on paper to describe what you should be doing, but until I see someone cross a steep gully/drain/bank and can tell me how they did it with safety in mind and still manage to bring i the ewes without some of them funking, some sloping away and taking their lambs to join them, well quite frankly they can feck off!!

Put simply, is the sheep farming or whatever job or task actually really and truthfully worth it then if the risk to your safety is as it is?

 

[DrWazzock]

Put simply, is the sheep farming or whatever job or task actually really and truthfully worth it then if the risk to your safety is as it is?

Is climbing a mountain or playing rugby really worth the risk? We all have our frame of reference and risk/reward criteria. I am not playing rugby as I don't think the risk of breaking a leg is worth the reward of getting a ball over a line. I am keeping cattle because its seems like a useful contribution to people's diet, gets me a living and pleasure to see them healthy.

I wouldn't lecture people on their attitude to risk/reward playing rugby - that's their choice. In return I would ask the H and S industry to respect my perception of acceptable risk/reward in the way I handle my cattle. I do risk assessments all the time. I do it to (what is in my view) an acceptable level of safely, but there is a limit to what can be spent on time and equipment to leave a return. So I have spent what I see to be a reasonable amount on safety equipment and rely on judgement and agility for the rest of the risk alleviation. If I did not rely on my agility, then I would have to spend so much on safety equipment that the job would be non viable. This is the same for many jobs. To make a job 100% safe you would remove the human from it, making it 100% mechanised and automatic. This just isn't cost effective in many farming operations but is part of the reason, that where possible, farmers have gone large scale with bigger machinery and fewer staff.

 

[DrWazzock]

A lot of its about perception. Dad would go across a roof "freestyle" as he had no fear of heights. "Just tread on the nails" he'd say. It was a bit stupid. I don't like heights at all so I use crawling boards and fall arrest nets. On top of that the sheets are now 65 years old and have the weight bearing capacity of a soggy ryevita. I have a vivid imagination and can predict what would happen. I am a pessimist. Dad was an eternal optimist and from an era when being depth charged in a sub and being pulled out of a sea of burning diesel was something that actually happened. Safety is all about psychology really.

 

[Highland Mule]

Is climbing a mountain or playing rugby really worth the risk? We all have our frame of reference and risk/reward criteria. I am not playing rugby as I don't think the risk of breaking a leg is worth the reward of getting a ball over a line. I am keeping cattle because its seems like a useful contribution to people's diet, gets me a living and pleasure to see them healthy.

I wouldn't lecture people on their attitude to risk/reward playing rugby - that's their choice. In return I would ask the H and S industry to respect my perception of acceptable risk/reward in the way I handle my cattle. I do risk assessments all the time. I do it to (what is in my view) an acceptable level of safely, but there is a limit to what can be spent on time and equipment to leave a return. So I have spent what I see to be a reasonable amount on safety equipment and rely on judgement and agility for the rest of the risk alleviation. If I did not rely on my agility, then I would have to spend so much on safety equipment that the job would be non viable. This is the same for many jobs. To make a job 100% safe you would remove the human from it, making it 100% mechanised and automatic. This just isn't cost effective in many farming operations but is part of the reason, that where possible, farmers have gone large scale with bigger machinery and fewer staff.

You’re on a slippery slope there, legally, but you’re in good company on said slope. If you think of your cattle keeping enterprise as work, then you need to adhere with health and safety at work laws and risks should be managed to be (and demonstrated that they are) As Low As Reasonably Practicable. If it’s a hobby, you may not need to, but should probably still ensure public risk is ALARP. I have no idea what the threshold is in the eyes of the HSE.

Do you have employers liability insurance, do you engage any third party help, and are there any other family members who work with you and would be exposed to risk as a result of your decisions?

Remember, nothing is “100% safe” and there is no expectation in law for it to be so. Reasonably Practicable is not zero.

 

[DrWazzock]

You’re on a slippery slope there, legally, but you’re in good company on said slope. If you think of your cattle keeping enterprise as work, then you need to adhere with health and safety at work laws and risks should be managed to be (and demonstrated that they are) As Low As Reasonably Practicable. If it’s a hobby, you may not need to, but should probably still ensure public risk is ALARP. I have no idea what the threshold is in the eyes of the HSE.

Do you have employers liability insurance, do you engage any third party help, and are there any other family members who work with you and would be exposed to risk as a result of your decisions?

Remember, nothing is “100% safe” and there is no expectation in law for it to be so. Reasonably Practicable is not zero.

You bandy these terms about such as "As Low as Reasonably Practicable". Do you ever stop to think of the difficulties of interpretation that this entails?
An oversensitive clipboard ninny from Islington will have a completely different view of "reasonably practical" to a practical farmer.

Much of the guff put out is meaningless.

Safety comes down to common sense, being careful and keeping your wits about you. I don't employ anybody for that reason.

 

[Highland Mule]

You bandy these terms about such as "As Low as Reasonably Practicable". Do you ever stop to think of the difficulties of interpretation that this entails?
An oversensitive clipboard ninny from Islington will have a completely different view of "reasonably practical" to a practical farmer.

Much of the guff put out is meaningless.

Safety comes down to common sense, being careful and keeping your wits about you. I don't employ anybody for that reason.

ALARP is a legal term, enshrined in law since the 1940s. I’m trying to give you the legal position so that you can make your own decision. “Reasonable” has also been defined in law, as have many of the myths about “clipboard wielding” inspectors and the likes.

Spend an hour or two in the HSE website rather than on here and you’ll get a flavour of what’s reasonable for you to do - practically and in the eyes of the law (and you’ll also see how similar they both are).

You may not employ anyone, but thats not the word I used. If you’re using contractors, H&S law applies still, and rightly so.

 

[Goweresque]

If you think of your cattle keeping enterprise as work, then you need to adhere with health and safety at work laws and risks

Ah, well therein lies part of farmings problem. What lots of ageing farmers are doing isn't really work, its a lifestyle choice. We don't say to extreme sports fanatics that they can't bicycle down a mountain, or free climb a rock face, or jump off a tall building with just a parachute on their back, because its too dangerous do we? We say that if they voluntarily choose to do something dangerous thats their right, even if it costs the rest of us financially via the NHS and welfare system.

I'll put a pound to a penny that many if not most, maybe even all of the over 60 farming fatalities involve people who could quite easily retire financially. Either because they could sell their assets and live off the income or rent them out and live off the rent, or remain a sleeping partner in a business operated by younger family members. So one would have to conclude that their farming activities are not work, they are a voluntary lifestyle choice because they like doing it. So why should farming be penalised with constant H&S regulations because of the choices of a load of ageing farmers to keep working when they don't have to? Is it work if you choose to do it when you don't have to? I could retire tomorrow and go and live in the Bahamas and never lift anything heavier than a pina colada again. But I don't, so am I working on my farm, or am I living a lifestyle I have chosen myself, just like an extreme sports participant has?

For example last year one of the deaths involved a 88 year old man who fell off a combine while cleaning the windscreen. Is that really a 'failure of H&S' or the voluntary choice of an old man to stay involved with a job and business he loved, despite the obvious risks to his safety due to his age?

 

[Highland Mule]

Ah, well therein lies part of farmings problem. What lots of ageing farmers are doing isn't really work, its a lifestyle choice. We don't say to extreme sports fanatics that they can't bicycle down a mountain, or free climb a rock face, or jump off a tall building with just a parachute on their back, because its too dangerous do we? We say that if they voluntarily choose to do something dangerous thats their right, even if it costs the rest of us financially via the NHS and welfare system.

I'll put a pound to a penny that many if not most, maybe even all of the over 60 farming fatalities involve people who could quite easily retire financially. Either because they could sell their assets and live off the income or rent them out and live off the rent, or remain a sleeping partner in a business operated by younger family members. So one would have to conclude that their farming activities are not work, they are a voluntary lifestyle choice because they like doing it. So why should farming be penalised with constant H&S regulations because of the choices of a load of ageing farmers to keep working when they don't have to? Is it work if you choose to do it when you don't have to? I could retire tomorrow and go and live in the Bahamas and never lift anything heavier than a pina colada again. But I don't, so am I working on my farm, or am I living a lifestyle I have chosen myself, just like an extreme sports participant has?

For example last year one of the deaths involved a 88 year old man who fell off a combine while cleaning the windscreen. Is that really a 'failure of H&S' or the voluntary choice of an old man to stay involved with a job and business he loved, despite the obvious risks to his safety due to his age?

Better start by telling the tax man it’s a hobby then, and stop claiming all your various tax reliefs, SFP etc. It’s a grey area, but I suspect there’s not many amateur golfers who could sell their clubs and retire in the proceeds. I’d say you could make an argument with a large garden and a few mouths to chomp the grass, but would struggle with anything much more than that.

And don’t shoot the messenger either - I’m as much of a hypocrite as anyone, lamenting the loss of others and then taking similar risks myself. But I recognise that we as an industry are failing - no excuses.

For the combine incident - no comment. Whilst I’d love to be physically fit enough to climb on one at 88, I also hope I’d have the mental capacity to realise it’s not sensible and use something like a brush on a stick instead.

 

[7610 super q]

' fraid it is a hobby, whilst we're being paid 1970's prices. Farming related accidents would halve, if we received 21st Century prices. There's only a limit to what small farmers can spend on it each year. I've blown this years budget on a bunded fuel tank ( money could have been better spent elsewhere, but hey-ho ). What other industry attempts to repair it's own buildings, works with dangerous animals, and f**ks about with 30 year old machinery ?. Folks on here won't have it though. And there's probably a small percentage who will undertake dangerous practice, even if they were millionaires. Can't legislate for stupid, although we're doing our damnedest in this country.