Help with oxford Allen Scythe

[stugordon321]

I've bought two old Oxford Allen Scythes with the intention of making usable machine out the two. My questions are
How can I find out the age of them both ?
They appear to be slightly different , one has a aluminium cover overthe pulley you wind the starting cord around, the other has a steel/tin cover.
One has some sort of locking hubs/wheels other doesn't.
One has some sort of gearing / sprocket coming off the engine one doesn't have tis.
Would I be correct assuming they are different models of the same machine ?
They both have Villiers 2 stroke engines so will parts be the same on these different models or not?
Any help or information would be great.
Thanks Stu

 

[Ley253]

The alloy fan housing will be the older of the two. The ratchets on the wheels are an attempt to aid the steering, allowing a differential effect by one wheel being able to overrun when turning.They are not the easiest of machines to use, for example, if the cutter bar gets caught in some obstruction, the loading jams the clutch so you cant stop! I found that out the hard way when I lowered a panel wood fence at school with one! The first panel had a neat cut along its length, the second and third were much more spectacular, the machine happily revolving around the supporting post chopping up the panels on its way round! Having to use the thing was a penalty for being the only person in the school who could start it!
The engines have deflector crown pistons, with the rings pegged in place to stop them getting chopped up in the ports, these pegs do drop out at times. magneto is standard villiers, with an over speed cut out in the points cam. As I remember, there is no flywheel key so align the timing marks before removing the flywheel, and dont turn the engine till its back on. The flywheel is on a taper, but the securing not also acts as a puller to help with removal.

 

[stugordon321]

Thanks for the reply. I was guessing the one with the locking hubs/diff would be the newer of the two.
Thanks for mentioning about setting timing marks etc as I would of assumed it had a woodruff key to hold it in place.
I have read about them being a bit of a handful to operate if your new to them but will find out in due time I guess.
How long ago did you last use one? I bought these as a project to make one good usable machine out of the two so hope I can use parts from one on the other but being different models I guess I will have to see what if any parts are the same.
I own & run a fencing business which is now in it's second year of trading & part of the business is ground care & maintenance etc so I'm hoping with new spares still available I may be able to put it to work from time to time cutting rough over grown brambles etc but will have to see how it turns out after tidying the better of the two up.
Having used one in the past do you think this is possible or am'I for too much??
What would you say the maximum thickness of brambles & saplings etc would before it to it without putting too much strain on the engine?
As I understand things spares aren't a problem to locate, so I'm hoping I can build a usable & reliable machine for the odd time I need a rough cutting mower.
What's your thoughts on this??

 

[Mursal]

Love a 2 stroke for easy starting especially as it gets older .....................
They can be temperamental

 

[Ley253]

It was about 58 years ago when I demolished the fence, and as for starting those engines, put a day aside! We had one driving a water pump on the farm, which was a real pain, I was so pleased when it froze up and burst the pump casing, the JAP engined replacement was no trouble at all. I think the last series Autosythe had the mk 10 four stroke engine yours with the tin trunking may be one of those, a photo would help.

 

[Y Fan Wen]

The new one my uncle bought in the late 50's had the wheel clutches, ratchets. I am pretty sure that they were an optional extra. He also went for the pto which I think you describe and the model where you could unplug the mower and fit other implements. I can remember a plough, cultivator and generator running off the pto.
I cut acres and acres of bracken before Asulox arrived.

 

[Mursal]

Put a day aside ....................
And you go in and sit down and wonder where the aces are coming from.
You did a bit of school then ...........................
@Ley253

 

[Ley253]

Put a day aside ....................
And you go in and sit down and wonder where the aces are coming from.
You did a bit of school then ...........................
@Ley253

Indeed I did! Boarding school, and not the best years of my life! Not the worst either, they came later, twelve of them, spent in the RN!

 

[biggles]

got one here, cuts several acres of rushes a year on some ground I have that has no vehicle access for the topper. they do take a bit of handling as said. I find if you get a lot of lush grass it binds in the blade and will stall as there is no clutch for the cutter bar. it will cut some fairish stuff. handy tool for the right jobs. put new points and coil in last year and timing it up took several attempts, @Ley253 summed it all up well above. you can download a manual of the net. not sure where I found it but it couldn't have been difficult as I did it!

 

[stugordon321]

Thanks everyone for replying. I will try to put a few photos of them at end of this.
Biggles you say you still use yours now & again. Obviously there all different but is yours fairly reliable? Or is it breaking down every time you use it?
I will be giving it a good workout when I've sorted the better one out but if it works well enough I will use it occasionally for cutting rough old ground covered in brambles &gorse bushes etc. if it's not up to the job I will still keep it to use around my parents paddock, although I'm hoping to use it properly for wrk.
If the 2 stroke engines fitted to my machine end up being unreliable etc does anyone know if I can bolt the 4 stroke engine on or a Jap 2 stroke instead of the Villiers to make life easier?
I've not really looked at il them yet but "if" the better one does have some kind of PTO does anyone know how it works?
When I get some spare time I will start pulling em apart to find out what parts I will need to buy or if I can use se parts from the roughest one to get the better one running. I know they did a plough, & yard scrapper amongst other things but what other attachments were made for them? & how hard would they be to get hold of ?
I will see try to find a manual I can down load so I know more about them as I've only ever seen them rusting away & never being used so quite like the idea of getting one back to decent working order but will have to see how the rebuild goes.
The older one can go in my parents garden as a ornament after I've robbed any parts I can use. So what ever way I look at it I will get my money's worth out of them.
Helpful site thanks guys Stu.

 

[Mursal]

Would you consider getting one started first, rather than stripping for fun.
Then fix as required ................

 

[stugordon321]

I would love to get it running before touching it but unfortunately it's a non runner. They've both been left to rust for years. I plan to do as little as possible just enough to get the engine running before going mad. However I have got some work getting it back to decent tidy working machine but I'm hoping as it's so simply made & very basic it should be fairly straightforward. From what I've found on-line spares aren't that hard to get so will see how I get on.
Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to down load any photos. I will try again but computers aren't my thing.
Thanks Stu.

 

[Y Fan Wen]

PTO; standing between the shafts and looking over the engine, there is the gearbox sloping down away from you, the pto is a horizontal shaft on the same plane as the axle and projecting out both sides.
This is the model I used but mine had the wide track axle, also an option. The twin pto can be seen clearly there.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3HErCtuZKA

 

[stugordon321]

Thanks Y fanwen.
I will check you tube out later when I gave a few minutes to spare.
I've not noticed any shafts around the drive shafts other than the gear wheel although the opposite side ( left side looking from handle bars ) has a cover/guard so may well have one under there. When I go back to my lock-up I will look to see if it has any shafts etc there.
I'm might be being a bit thick but if the right side is some sort of PTO how does it work only from the quick look I've had so far I haven't worked out how it should work or how I would attach the attachments to said PTO. If anyone could post any photos would be great. I've found loads of photos when I looked on google but none showed this PTO or how attachments go on the shaft.
Thanks again Stu

 

[stugordon321]

I'll try to up load some photos
Success at last. Hope these help. These are all of the one I hope to rebuild. Can anyone help me with how the PTO works if that's what the gear wheel is.
Thanks again everyone Stu

 

[Y Fan Wen]

Does the middle photo show the 'pto'?
If so that is not a pto, but the manoeuvring ratchet to help you turn more easily. There should be one on the other side under the guard as well. You will see the one in the U tube clip has a different front end to yours. Mine was as u tube. I have an idea it was called the 'universal' model.

 

[Mursal]

That U-Tube as, in my opinion an awful lot to answer for ......................

 

[biggles]

that looks the same engine as on mine, think Villiers 23c is the model of it. I find mine very reliable now ive spent a few quid on the ignition system, I do stall it now and again in lush grass, but if you keep the blade sharp and with minimal clearance to the bottom of the fingers its pretty unstoppable. ive packed the fingers up at the back with thin strips of metal to get them just touching the blade. not sure if that's what you are supposed to do but it works for me. ive also learnt to get the best it needs fresh petrol if its stood for a few months and also don't use modern 2 stroke oil, think its sae 30? and its quite an oily mix, think 16/1 or 20/1 it says on mine on the petrol cap. probably use it for about 30hrs a year so its not retired by a long way. ive always threatened to make some skids to raise the cutter a bit as its hard on your arms when trying to push down for a long time on rough ground where cows have trod up in the past.

 

[stugordon321]

Thanks for replying Biggles. Unfortunately I think you could be right about that gear not being any kind of PTO. It's good to hear from someone who uses one regularly. I assume you had problems with reliability before fitting electronic ignition. How much is involved in upgrading the ignition on them? Can't imagine it's that hard to change as there's nothing to original ignition system.
I've been looking at some photos of these mowers & I can't believe the amount of attachments that were made for them. Some of which could still be useful even in today's world so when they were in production poeple must of thought they were amazing machines. From the photos I can see some attachments are powered by adapting the flywheel. Would this be the PTO ?? I can't think of anywhere else it could be unless it's under the cover/ guard but would be surprised if it is there.
Does anyone have any ideas where I could find a few original attachments for sale?? Don't know what I should try to get but will consider anything.
I've down loaded a workshop manual etc but that doesn't help explain about about the PTO. I have to say farmers etc must of been over the moon when this machine was being produced as it must of been so useful for so manny different tasks around the farm,
It will be nice just to get it into a usable & tidy machine for the occasional bit of work as that what it's made for.
Thanks all Stu.

 

[biggles]

i didn't fit electronic ignition, just fitted new coil and points etc. it got a bit poor starting and only had a weak spark. now it sparks like a good un.