HLS Inspection errors.

[steveR]

I had an inspection in 2016 on my farm to check my HLS and ELS Agreement areas. I had the usual 24hr notice, and then met the guy the first day of his Inspection and then again had a (non farming) chat with him after a weekend when he came back to complete his work.

This was the last we heard until late last year when I received an incomprehensible spreadsheet from the RPA/NE with the outcome. They suggested that there were issues and that ! would hear again from them.

Yesterday, I received a letter detailing the main area that they have a problem with. That is, that my HF13 fallow area was measured at 2.83 ha instead of the 4.0ha in the Agreement. In addition, the Inspector found a small discrepancy of .05ha in a wild bird plot.

Result, £6.5k Clawback and fine!

My issue is that the the HF13 areas will almost certainly have been accurate and in fact, over the required area. The idea that the area was shy by 30% is almost laughable, other than it has the potential to be very costly to my small business!

The Inspector failed to follow the procedures as laid out in the document here!

Here

He failed to speak or contact me at any time following teh Inspection to discuss his findings or to check any aspect of them with me. This I believe is a total breach of the above stated procedure, and prevented my checking and confirming, or not, how he had arrived at his calculations at that time. It is impossible for me to do so now, as the Option is a rotational one, and was gone come Autumn.

I am unsure if the RPA has/had used satellite imaging to check any areas as well, but from personal experience, this is dreadfully inacccurate, as is does not allow proper identification of different cropping areas in Stewardship or when under trees, hedges etc.

I will challenge the letter and findings, but I would be extremely grateful for any pointers on best practice before I start the process.

Is the NFU Call Direct service of any use? Any other person I should speak with? Any GOOD Agent with a track record of challenging the RPA Inspector?

Thanks.

 

[ajcc]

Insist on oral hearing to any and every appeal opportunity otherwise you’ll get whitewashed.
Reply and interact as late as possible as close to any deadlines as legal because that’s what they’ll do and more. Don’t sweat it.
If your new to this game you bend over backwards to reply and respond but that cooperation will not help cos they’ll still take months to say..no.
I’m still fighting them after 7 years.

 

[steveR]

Insist on oral hearing to any and every appeal opportunity otherwise you’ll get whitewashed.
Reply and interact as late as possible as close to any deadlines as legal because that’s what they’ll do and more. Don’t sweat it.
If your new to this game you bend over backwards to reply and respond but that cooperation will not help cos they’ll still take months to say..no.
I’m still fighting them after 7 years.

Joy!!

I'll take on board your point about having an Oral or face to face Hearing. It's too easy for them to shut the door and decide whats happening with no scrutiny or the ability to query their findings.... As happened with the original Inspection!

 

[yellow belly]

When I get an inspection I will employ my agent to shadow the inspector and make sure they know they are being checked

 

[steveR]

When I get an inspection I will employ my agent to shadow the inspector and make sure they know they are being checked

Sadly, I am a bit late for this now.... If I had known what he was up to, I would have spent a day going around with him! Previous Inspector the year before had a query on one of the areas, and came and asked where it started and finished. Quick look at the maps and we were sorted.

 

[WRXppp]

I had an inspection in 2016 on my farm to check my HLS and ELS Agreement areas. I had the usual 24hr notice, and then met the guy the first day of his Inspection and then again had a (non farming) chat with him after a weekend when he came back to complete his work.

This was the last we heard until late last year when I received an incomprehensible spreadsheet from the RPA/NE with the outcome. They suggested that there were issues and that ! would hear again from them.

Yesterday, I received a letter detailing the main area that they have a problem with. That is, that my HF13 fallow area was measured at 2.83 ha instead of the 4.0ha in the Agreement. In addition, the Inspector found a small discrepancy of .05ha in a wild bird plot.

Result, £6.5k Clawback and fine!

My issue is that the the HF13 areas will almost certainly have been accurate and in fact, over the required area. The idea that the area was shy by 30% is almost laughable, other than it has the potential to be very costly to my small business!

The Inspector failed to follow the procedures as laid out in the document here!

Here

He failed to speak or contact me at any time following teh Inspection to discuss his findings or to check any aspect of them with me. This I believe is a total breach of the above stated procedure, and prevented my checking and confirming, or not, how he had arrived at his calculations at that time. It is impossible for me to do so now, as the Option is a rotational one, and was gone come Autumn.

I am unsure if the RPA has/had used satellite imaging to check any areas as well, but from personal experience, this is dreadfully inacccurate, as is does not allow proper identification of different cropping areas in Stewardship or when under trees, hedges etc.

I will challenge the letter and findings, but I would be extremely grateful for any pointers on best practice before I start the process.

Is the NFU Call Direct service of any use? Any other person I should speak with? Any GOOD Agent with a track record of challenging the RPA Inspector?

Thanks.

Well that’s my 19month wait for an inspection report record well and truly shattered, I had a chat when inspected befor he left and he said everything was in order but low and behold when the report landed it said he couldn’t find 23metres of wall restoration so I had to pay that back plus an equal amount of fine! It was there and fortunately I could prove so, I now take pictures on my iPad off all wild bird plots, pollen and nectar plot establishments, catch crop brassicas just for piece of mind, I think also you may have a case as these must have been rotational areas and cross referencing with BPS I know also my inspector also took some photos and as such if he took photos of said areas it will show boundry features which can then be used to appeal said discrepancy by re-measuring the area even though it has gone.

 

[steveR]

Well that’s my 19month wait for an inspection report record well and truly shattered, I had a chat when inspected before he left and he said everything was in order but low and behold when the report landed it said he couldn’t find 23metres of wall restoration so I had to pay that back plus an equal amount of fine! It was there and fortunately I could prove so, I now take pictures on my iPad off all wild bird plots, pollen and nectar plot establishments, catch crop brassicas just for piece of mind, I think also you may have a case as these must have been rotational areas and cross referencing with BPS I know also my inspector also took some photos and as such if he took photos of said areas it will show boundry features which can then be used to appeal said discrepancy by re-measuring the area even though it has gone.

Thanks for those positive thoughts. Interesting that initially the Inspector said all was well, and then a a substantial change when the report arrived...

What procedure did you take in appealing the findings? Please take it to PM if you prefer.

Cheers

 

[Ramrod]

Had similar few years back, sorted by me looking and finding satellite photo's (google, bing, magic etc) of when area was as per claim, best if on Magic then can also measure area.

 

[steveR]

Had similar few years back, sorted by me looking and finding satellite photo's (google, bing, magic etc) of when area was as per claim, best if on Magic then can also measure area.

I had thought of this, but after 2.5 years, all the imaging I can see of our area has been updated... I am sure the old stuff is still available, but it's locating it. I am sure the RPA has it mind...

 

[steveR]

Sadly, I am a bit late for this now.... If I had known what he was up to, I would have spent a day going around with him! Previous Inspector the year before had a query on one of the areas, and came and asked where it started and finished. Quick look at the maps and we were sorted.

Started the process of getting some advice to hand, and I was told that unofficial advice is to shadow the Inspector for the whole visit! The trouble is finding the time at what was very short notice... As I recall, on the 2nd day, we were TB testing as well...

 

[WRXppp]

Thanks for those positive thoughts. Interesting that initially the Inspector said all was well, and then a a substantial change when the report arrived...

What procedure did you take in appealing the findings? Please take it to PM if you prefer.

Cheers

Since I had the wall physically still there it was a matter of taking pictures. I also dug out the builders invoices and invoices for the lime and sand used.
If you go to said areas you may still see a difference in sown crop or atleast have an idea of where said plot was so you can re-measure yourself so to put your own mind at rest that areas where correct.

 

[yellow belly]

Are we now at a situation where we need to get drone pictures of stewardship every year

Then have a copy file for the inspector who signs for it

 

[steveR]

Are we now at a situation where we need to get drone pictures of stewardship every year

Then have a copy file for the inspector who signs for it

Sounds like a potential little earner.. Neat idea. I wonder how much a video of a couple of hundred acres would cost? Maybe I can justify buying myself one to be honest, as this sort of thing is a worry.

Whether you can get the Inspector to sign it may be another matter...

 

[Farmer T]

Going through the same experience as the OP right now.

Being fined for 2017 and also retrospectively for 2016 without any evidence.

Tremendously frustrating and stressful. Our inspector also gave us no impression he was fining us for this when he left us otherwise I would have gone to said area and measured it with them.

The whole way the CSS is policed and organised is a disgrace. It makes me want to plough every margin up. I would tell anyone who is thinking of entering to seriously think it about it.

 

[WRXppp]

Going through the same experience as the OP right now.

Being fined for 2017 and also retrospectively for 2016 without any evidence.

Tremendously frustrating and stressful. Our inspector also gave us no impression he was fining us for this when he left us otherwise I would have gone to said area and measured it with them.

The whole way the CSS is policed and organised is a disgrace. It makes me want to plough every margin up. I would tell anyone who is thinking of entering to seriously think it about it.

The problem is they are judge and jury, we sign these agreements but it isn’t until you have had an inspection that it suddenly dawns how one sided it is, how the hell can a 19 month wait for on inspection report even happen, if it’s a question regarding an area of a certain option they should either bring it to your attention on the day or get back befor the end date of that particular option, once that day has dawned then it’s history, they have the list where everything is, they have an area there and then just tell us, maybe there is another lump of option over the hill out of sight and they wonder why people don’t re-sign!

 

[WRXppp]

I had thought of this, but after 2.5 years, all the imaging I can see of our area has been updated... I am sure the old stuff is still available, but it's locating it. I am sure the RPA has it mind...

It will tell you on the report if inspector took any photos and how many, if they owe you loads of money, inspection normally means no payment until report is finalised, ring them up an say how much they owe you then tell them to knock it off the total, lay it on quite thick regarding cash flow, my agent told me don’t appeal until you get paid off them or it just totally blocks the system.

 

[steveR]

Going through the same experience as the OP right now.

Being fined for 2017 and also retrospectively for 2016 without any evidence.

Tremendously frustrating and stressful. Our inspector also gave us no impression he was fining us for this when he left us otherwise I would have gone to said area and measured it with them.

The whole way the CSS is policed and organised is a disgrace. It makes me want to plough every margin up. I would tell anyone who is thinking of entering to seriously think it about it.

Sounds like you have started the process before me... :-( I am starting with some NFU advice initially and sussing the appeal [process... such as it is. As you have said, the process of the Inspector allegedly identifying a breach and then disappearing with no notification is all wrong, and from my reading, a breach of the procedures they should follow.

I had already decided I will not renew my Agreements in any shape or form and and had already declined to follow through with 2 Capital Grant schemes that I had successfully applied for. I am not willing to be out many £££ while they faff about and then decide I have failed to complete the works to their satisfaction and wont pay. Stuff it!

 

[steveR]

The problem is they are judge and jury, we sign these agreements but it isn’t until you have had an inspection that it suddenly dawns how one sided it is, how the hell can a 19 month wait for on inspection report even happen, if it’s a question regarding an area of a certain option they should either bring it to your attention on the day or get back befor the end date of that particular option, once that day has dawned then it’s history, they have the list where everything is, they have an area there and then just tell us, maybe there is another lump of option over the hill out of sight and they wonder why people don’t re-sign!

It is just plain impossible for me to put a |Like| to this post, but it is so righ and is totally correct. More's the effing pity....

Very succinct and apt summing up...

 

[steveR]

It will tell you on the report if inspector took any photos and how many, if they owe you loads of money, inspection normally means no payment until report is finalised, ring them up an say how much they owe you then tell them to knock it off the total, lay it on quite thick regarding cash flow, my agent told me don’t appeal until you get paid off them or it just totally blocks the system.

Buggers have promised an early Invoice.... One of the questions I want answering from the Legals, is do I pay their Invoice and appeal? Appeal and delay payment awaiting an outcome? Or ask for them to knock it off the next payment...?

Very relevant point about cashflows...

 

[ajcc]

Don’t pay unless you owe it! Up to them to show you the proof that you were in breech not for you to prove your innocence......But what would I know, I’ve kept at least one individual occupied at N E for 7 years come May 20 th.