Horny Angus

[Cowgirl]

How old is the Angus herd book? 1830 - 1850?

 

[M-J-G]

To the publication of the first herd book, yes.

If there had been a herdbook earlier could it be less?

 

[borderterribles]

As long as it's black and the paperwork says Angus on it, it'll be fine. After all, nearly everybody chucks the head in the bin!

 

[Princess Pooper]

We've had a succession of pedigree Angus bulls as sweeper on our HF dairy herd and frequently got stubby horns on those that we took through to finishing. Not sure why this is an issue? HF are horned - and presumably it's a dominant gene?

 

[Cowgirl]

If there had been a herdbook earlier could it be less?

Yes there were several well known breeders (William Hewer, Philip Turner, William Tudge) in the late 1700s who kept records of their stock. These were descended from the red cattle of the Welsh Marches that were known in that area from Roman times. If you‘re actually interested there is a fascinating book on the history of the Hereford.

 

[Cowgirl]

We've had a succession of pedigree Angus bulls as sweeper on our HF dairy herd and frequently got stubby horns on those that we took through to finishing. Not sure why this is an issue? HF are horned - and presumably it's a dominant gene?

Well no - that’s just the point - it’s recessive! A purebred Angus should be homozygous polled and should never produce a horned calf..

 

[valtraman]

I’m all Angus bulls and every year one or two calves will develop small horns if they have come out a dairy cross lim or blue cow . It’s annoying

 

[M-J-G]

These small horns are most likely scurs which are only attached to the skin.
The scurred gene is different from the horned/polled gene.

 

[Cowgirl]

These small horns are most likely scurs which are only attached to the skin.
The scurred gene is different from the horned/polled gene.

So how common are scurs in Angus? They occur in Herefords but I’ve never heard of an Angus with scurs. So which is the OP talking about - are they attached to the skull or not?

 

[@dlm]

I know I’m on third Angus, one bought as older bull but almost most successful award winning Angus, one other from same herd and another from another top reputable herd. In recent events in other breeds I know that counts for nothing, bit I’d say 10% with spurs . Never longer than an inch, often just one side of head. Bought a Hereford few years back as had forty odd heifers to bull, breeder assured me calves would be polled. With old habits I disbudded calves for a year, then when generally not feeling any buds I risked believing him. About 80% don’t even have a scur but rest have proper full horns and thick at that. Not sure if questions his breeding or my cows, doing 1 in 5 as a yearling when real,thick it’s probably easier to do the lot as calves

 

[Cowgirl]

I know I’m on third Angus, one bought as older bull but almost most successful award winning Angus, one other from same herd and another from another top reputable herd. In recent events in other breeds I know that counts for nothing, bit I’d say 10% with spurs . Never longer than an inch, often just one side of head. Bought a Hereford few years back as had forty odd heifers to bull, breeder assured me calves would be polled. With old habits I disbudded calves for a year, then when generally not feeling any buds I risked believing him. About 80% don’t even have a scur but rest have proper full horns and thick at that. Not sure if questions his breeding or my cows, doing 1 in 5 as a yearling when real,thick it’s probably easier to do the lot as calves

Since Herefords were originally horned and many breeders still have both horned and polled stock, many Hereford bulls will be heterozygous horned / polled. The numbers of horned offspring suggest your bull was just that, even though he was himself polled. That shouldn’t be the case with Angus though.

 

[Princess Pooper]

So how common are scurs in Angus? They occur in Herefords but I’ve never heard of an Angus with scurs. So which is the OP talking about - are they attached to the skull or not?

it's well established that AA can produce scurs. Here is a useful link from Signet breeding. http://www.signetfbc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/polling_in_cattel_-_logos.doc

Can't say I ever went to any hassle of grabbing them to check - our cross breds only ever had little stubby things as per sketch in here, rarely wider than your hand and often only one one side of the head or one side larger than the other. The Op said his yearling does not have a full horn like a Limmy so no doubt scurs.

 

[Cowgirl]

it's well established that AA can produce scurs. Here is a useful link from Signet breeding. http://www.signetfbc.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/polling_in_cattel_-_logos.doc

Thank you - good link. However the Aberdeen Angus Cattle Society website says they should be “free of scurs”. Also for scurs to be present in the offspring there must be a copy of the horned gene as well so you shouldn’t get scurs in a homozygous polled animal.

 

[M-J-G]

In AAx cattle, the scurs could come from the cows side.

 

[Princess Pooper]

Thank you - good link. However the Aberdeen Angus Cattle Society website says they should be “free of scurs”.

Sorry my comment above was badly written, I didn't mean pure bred AA, I just meant AA as one parent. It's slightly complicated. If you look at the polled/scurred table in the link, homozygous polling - which you say pure AA would be - disguises any spur genetics that they carry. But this is a cross bred we are talking about so some offspring may have the horned gene from the dairy side so although it can't be fully horned, it can 'switch on' the spur gene if present.

 

[Cowgirl]

True but the OP said they were horns, and we are now assuming that they are scurs. Useful discussion though.

 

[Princess Pooper]

True but the OP said they were horns, and we are now assuming that they are scurs. Useful discussion though.

An awful lot of farmers would refer to scurs as horns even if it's not technically correct and not something you come across or discuss in depth. My father in law had farmed cattle for 60 years and always referred to scurs as horns.

 

[Cowgirl]

An awful lot of farmers would refer to scurs as horns even if it's not technically correct and not something you come across or discuss in depth. My father in law had farmed cattle for 60 years and always referred to scurs as horns.

Well I guess we won’t know unless the OP tells us.

 

[Princess Pooper]

PS scurs can attach to the skull as it gets older.

 

[Pigken]

I have an animal that was sold to me as an Angus x steer from a dairy herd
Its now @ 12 month old and has small horns??
Horns are no where near as big as they would have been if it was a Limmy .
Spoke to guy I bought it off, and his records obviously say its an AA.
However BCMS won`t alter the passport unless breeder says its wrong.

Cannot really sell it as an Angus if its got horns

Or do Angus crosses sometimes have horns???

Was involved in some feed /carcass trial work year a two or go, were by we reared Angus Cross dairy cattle. Some from English Angus sires and some from American sired Angus. America Angus all from one breeding stud. Majority of American sired cattle had horns. Was believed from supplying a i company involved that inclusion of other genes was included in breeding American Angus. Had some Canadian s look at cattle during study and they said quite usual to see with horns on.