Hot knife tailing thoughts

[Tim W]

Do you need to cut the tails off?

 

[Tim W]

If you have to do it Hot knife is meant to be the least painful method
Tail docking is banned in Netherlands, Sweden, Estonia, Austria and only allowed in individual cases in Germany...will they want our lamb reared to lower standards in the brave new trade deals Boris is getting for us?

Pig industry went through this a while back & tail docking is now only permitted when all other management and environmental means have been exhausted

Legislation will be coming ---not an ''if'' but a ''when''

 

[unlacedgecko]

If you have to do it Hot knife is meant to be the least painful method
Tail docking is banned in Netherlands, Sweden, Estonia, Austria and only allowed in individual cases in Germany...will they want our lamb reared to lower standards in the brave new trade deals Boris is getting for us?

Pig industry went through this a while back & tail docking is now only permitted when all other management and environmental means have been exhausted

Legislation will be coming ---not an ''if'' but a ''when''

Especially with BoJo's squeeze giving him the appropriate motivation...

I'm aiming to breed sheep which don't require docking. But I'll happily offer a hot knife service to customers till legislation stops me.

 

[exmoor dave]

@exmoor dave has a taling chute if I remember right? Must be quite a few around the country as shearwell sell them?

the only lambs I’ve ever had joint ill or erysipelas with have been once that have spent any time in a shed like on an adopter crate. We used to use nettex septiclense in the shed and fields but we’d be forever catching lambs at 3-4 weeks old with joint ill. Since moving to 10% iodine spray to anything that Goes near the shed the incidences are less than 0.6% for joint ill and 0.3% for erysipelas.
Only use rubber rings here but definitely get some break, got 2 ewe lambs this year and 2 last year that were definitely ringed yet have long tails. Any recommendations on best rings? I had 1500 nettex last year that were good and then 500 generic in a bag and quality is nowhere near as good, they tend to ping off the pliers easier to have to get the hacksaw out and make bigger grooves in the pliers.

Not me, haven't got one or ever used one.
But yeah shearwell sell the tepari shute.

Ring lambs here (terminals and 1st crosses)
Leave tails on the exlanas

 

[neilo]

@exmoor dave has a taling chute if I remember right? Must be quite a few around the country as shearwell sell them?

the only lambs I’ve ever had joint ill or erysipelas with have been once that have spent any time in a shed like on an adopter crate. We used to use nettex septiclense in the shed and fields but we’d be forever catching lambs at 3-4 weeks old with joint ill. Since moving to 10% iodine spray to anything that Goes near the shed the incidences are less than 0.6% for joint ill and 0.3% for erysipelas.
Only use rubber rings here but definitely get some break, got 2 ewe lambs this year and 2 last year that were definitely ringed yet have long tails. Any recommendations on best rings? I had 1500 nettex last year that were good and then 500 generic in a bag and quality is nowhere near as good, they tend to ping off the pliers easier to have to get the hacksaw out and make bigger grooves in the pliers.

I don’t think I’ve ever had a ring break, but I do admit that it’s perfectly possible that I may miss one at lambing time, when I’m busy and I’ve reached the ‘going through the motions’ stage.
I had two lambs in my December bunch that had Tails left on, despite being ‘processed’ by double tagging and numbering (which is when I ring them normally). They were twins, so very unlikely to be broken rings.
Luckily I spotted them just as they were 7 days old.

You guys aren’t reusing old rings you’ve found in the field are you?

 

[Sid]

You guys aren’t reusing old rings you’ve found in the field are you?

I hope all you sheep farmers are going round and picking up all the used rings to prevent plastic pollution ?

 

[David.]

I have trained the foxes to pick up the spent rings. All we have to do then is poo pick after the foxes. Winner.
I have had ewe hoggs from up north in the past that have a bony spike out the end of the tail stub, I assume this is the result of careless hot ironing?

 

[Northeastfarmer]

Do you need to cut the tails off?

Yes...it makes them look pretty ?

 

[SteveHants]

If you have to do it Hot knife is meant to be the least painful method
Tail docking is banned in Netherlands, Sweden, Estonia, Austria and only allowed in individual cases in Germany...will they want our lamb reared to lower standards in the brave new trade deals Boris is getting for us?

Pig industry went through this a while back & tail docking is now only permitted when all other management and environmental means have been exhausted

Legislation will be coming ---not an ''if'' but a ''when''

If I recall correctly, it helps them resist strike too. They tend to use their tails to "swish" at flies.
The problem is obviously that scour can be a bit more of an effort to clean up if it happens - but it's easier to manage scour than dock tails I always found.

 

[beardface]

If you have to do it Hot knife is meant to be the least painful method
Tail docking is banned in Netherlands, Sweden, Estonia, Austria and only allowed in individual cases in Germany...will they want our lamb reared to lower standards in the brave new trade deals Boris is getting for us?

Pig industry went through this a while back & tail docking is now only permitted when all other management and environmental means have been exhausted

Legislation will be coming ---not an ''if'' but a ''when''

So they won't be taking NZ lamb or ozzy hogget then?

Legislation in UK says that over 7 days you need local anesthesia. There's a company called numnuts bringing a ringing tool with numocaine (essentially adrenocaine but cheaper) to the UK this year. Its had a commercial release in ozzy last year with widespread support (and the designer is Scottish) . There's also a product called tri solfen which contains a local anesthetic an NSAID (buccalgesic pain relief) and an anti septic to promote wound healing. It's widely used in ozzy on mulesing/tailing wounds and calf castration dehorning etc. Will be getting eu release by dechra in next 12 months ish for use on calves, piglets (tail docking, if you've ever seen a tail bitten pig you'll understand the benefits of docking) and tailing lambs.

It's funny that we bang on about high UK welfare standards as right now ozzy has some of the highest in regards to pain relief during tailing castration etc.

 

[neilo]

So they won't be taking NZ lamb or ozzy hogget then?

Legislation in UK says that over 7 days you need local anesthesia. There's a company called numnuts bringing a ringing tool with numocaine (essentially adrenocaine but cheaper) to the UK this year. Its had a commercial release in ozzy last year with widespread support (and the designer is Scottish) . There's also a product called tri solfen which contains a local anesthetic an NSAID (buccalgesic pain relief) and an anti septic to promote wound healing. It's widely used in ozzy on mulesing/tailing wounds and calf castration dehorning etc. Will be getting eu release by dechra in next 12 months ish for use on calves, piglets (tail docking, if you've ever seen a tail bitten pig you'll understand the benefits of docking) and tailing lambs.

It's funny that we bang on about high UK welfare standards as right now ozzy has some of the highest in regards to pain relief during tailing castration etc.

Isn't the Australian idea to relieve pain because they are doing them when they are older? We just have a much earlier cut of age of 7 days for ringing, when they don't feel that pain in the first place.

The biggest problem with having to use pain relief, is that the anesthetic has to have several minutes to work, which just isn't going to happen in the real world when you might have a thousand lambs to tail in a day.

 

[beardface]

Tri solfen is fast acting through the wound with up to 3 days pain relief. Ringing hurts at any age I don't believe the "they feel less when there younger" mantra. Plus you have more risk of lambs dying from starvation in extensive systems. Personally I hope to be using both tri solfen and numnuts as soon as there available whilst also being more selective of which lambs get marked. So all ewe and ram lamb replacements will get tailed (unless it's naturally shorter) and all lambs which will likely be on farm over a month post weaning will get tailed and castrated. Strong lambs which will be marketed at or shortly after weaning I'll leave. So roughly 1/3 will be left. Mainly because tri solfen has a withdrawal of 90 days so limits early marketing of lambs. Think numnuts is roughly 14-21 day withdrawal. Worth bearing in mind that once numnuts hits the market it could become a farm assurance requirement to use pain relief at all ages as the product will be there to do it.

 

[Bury the Trash]

I hope all you sheep farmers are going round and picking up all the used rings to prevent plastic pollution ?

They are not made of plastic, and will biodegrade.

 

[Al R]

I have trained the foxes to pick up the spent rings. All we have to do then is poo pick after the foxes. Winner.
I have had ewe hoggs from up north in the past that have a bony spike out the end of the tail stub, I assume this is the result of careless hot ironing?

Some ewes especially hill types will chew the lambs tails off when their young..

 

[neilo]

Tri solfen is fast acting through the wound with up to 3 days pain relief. Ringing hurts at any age I don't believe the "they feel less when there younger" mantra. Plus you have more risk of lambs dying from starvation in extensive systems. Personally I hope to be using both tri solfen and numnuts as soon as there available whilst also being more selective of which lambs get marked. So all ewe and ram lamb replacements will get tailed (unless it's naturally shorter) and all lambs which will likely be on farm over a month post weaning will get tailed and castrated. Strong lambs which will be marketed at or shortly after weaning I'll leave. So roughly 1/3 will be left. Mainly because tri solfen has a withdrawal of 90 days so limits early marketing of lambs. Think numnuts is roughly 14-21 day withdrawal. Worth bearing in mind that once numnuts hits the market it could become a farm assurance requirement to use pain relief at all ages as the product will be there to do it.

I’ve never heard of either, so I can’t comment on this products.

I will say that I ring everything that lambs outside as early as I can, certainly by 12hours and sometimes as soon as they’re out.
You might not believe they less pain when they’re younger, but they certainly don’t react to it the same at that age. I never see any sign of discomfort at all, and they are usually straight onto their feet as if nothing had happened as soon as I release them.
I certainly can’t see how it could contribute to any higher more starvation unless you mean the interfering at a young age might make the mother bugger off with one? I always hold both lambs between my legs whilst processing them, then release both together. If the ewe then buggered off with one, she probably wouldn’t be lambing here again, certainly not to a maternal ram!

 

[neilo]

Ok, I’ve just looked up these two.

I think I’ll stick with putting cheap, simple & effective rings on at birth.

Numnuts | Targeted pain relief | Tail docking and castration | Lamb Marking

More than 100 million lambs are castrated and tail docked each year. Numnuts® is a product for alleviating the pain when lambs during lamb marking and sheep tailing

numnuts.store

Farm Animal health Solutions & Livestock Products | Bayer Grow Solutions

Find your nearest grow area manager or contact us in case you have any questions regarding our services and products

www.growsolutions.com.au

 

[Al R]

Ok, I’ve just looked up these two.

I think I’ll stick with putting cheap, simple & effective rings on at birth.

Numnuts | Targeted pain relief | Tail docking and castration | Lamb Marking

More than 100 million lambs are castrated and tail docked each year. Numnuts® is a product for alleviating the pain when lambs during lamb marking and sheep tailing

numnuts.store

Farm Animal health Solutions & Livestock Products | Bayer Grow Solutions

Find your nearest grow area manager or contact us in case you have any questions regarding our services and products

www.growsolutions.com.au

If that comes legislation I’d stop ringing but then who wants hill bred ram lambs?

Like you @neilo I try and get them done before 6 hours maximum outside, a lot of lambs you can’t catch after 24hours, 12hour limit on hill breeds which need their testicles doing more than anything! Doing lambs as early as possible as long as they’ve dried and had colostrum the ring doesn’t effect them and they get straight back up and suck, lambs in a shed even at 24hours old tend to suck once for comfort an then lay back down. Outdoor lambs follow mum

 

[unlacedgecko]

If that comes legislation I’d stop ringing but then who wants hill bred ram lambs?

Specialist lamb finishers in arable areas.

If legislation comes in I'm sure I could take plenty of hill ram lambs, for the right price of course.

 

[beardface]

If that comes legislation I’d stop ringing but then who wants hill bred ram lambs?

Like you @neilo I try and get them done before 6 hours maximum outside, a lot of lambs you can’t catch after 24hours, 12hour limit on hill breeds which need their testicles doing more than anything! Doing lambs as early as possible as long as they’ve dried and had colostrum the ring doesn’t effect them and they get straight back up and suck, lambs in a shed even at 24hours old tend to suck once for comfort an then lay back down. Outdoor lambs follow mum

I lamb out and have tried to ring lambs as early as possible. Had more losses than I'd like from ringing under a day old last year and that was lambs which were definitely with there mother when I left them.

I've rung them at various ages and they exhibit the same pain response whatever the age. I'd much rather leave them well alone for a month to bond and grow then tail them if needed than bugger about with every lamb close to birth. But that's just me if your system works then crack on.

 

[JD-Kid]

the numnuts. thing very intresting
think for doing weathers would be a great thing as the weathering of rams knocks the hell out of them hot iron on tails dont see any knock back of the lambs at tailing