How Ag. rationalisation is killing the livestock sector by Public Relations

[onesiedale]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy4ldkpz1klo

we all know how the pig and poultry sectors are operating with perceived efficiencies leading to lack of profitability on farm.

The same is happening with beef and dairy, but will the processors realise this before the media have a field day ( pun intended) and expose the true numbers of how much food is produced from housed livestock?

 

[bluebell]

Free range eggs, do your agricultural / farming history, say from 1930 -45 then 1945-82, back in 1930s all eggs where free range and eggs were expensive and short? WW2 and the nations national emergency encouraged, funded, a massive expansion of home grown food production and "battery egg production was a consequence of all this? Now im not at all saying that "factory farming", is good, but yes please lets go back to 1930s population and 4-6 million extra acres of land that has been lost since then that could produce food? The facts are the UKs population is rapidly increasing in a country that unlike france that has less people and nearly double the area of land a small declining land capable of food production great?

 

[Pan mixer]

But look at the competition - The Hourigan family in NY State are expanding to around 5000 cows as we speak.

 

[delilah]

There is no correlation between scale and welfare. End of.

There are, however, valid reasons to be concerned about scale. The primary one being whether or not your business survives. Anyone wants to do anything about that, needs to recognise that all meaningful change is demand driven. This isn't a discussion about 'big ag', it is a discussion about the structure of the food chain.

 

[soapsud]

There is no correlation between scale and welfare. End of.

Show us evidence that mega farms and small farms have no casualty/mortality differences?

There are, however, valid reasons to be concerned about scale. The primary one being whether or not your business survives. Anyone wants to do anything about that, needs to recognise that all meaningful change is demand driven.

Wanting something different is a start but you need loud enough voices to make those demands heard.

This isn't a discussion about 'big ag', it is a discussion about the structure of the food chain.

Big Ag is complying with corporate requirements. Big Ag follows the money. Money is louder than small farm appeal.

 

[teslacoils]

In the 60s we would should aloud about the wonders of efficiency and productivity in ag. There is some very weird thinking that farming is different from every other business. I dont go into my bank and think "wouldnt it be wonderful if all this were done by ranks of tellers with slide rules". Nor do I think "isnt it a shame I can only by an iPhone or a Samsung - why cant I buy a phone whittled out of wood by a local artisan?".

If folk want ag to be a special case, then they cant expect it to be subject to the same drivers as other business. Sure, townies may like to think I can subsist with three sheep; a pig under my arm; trousers held up with twine and chewing a piece of straw. And Ill provide that image but not while they take home £50k for being some kind of tosspot consultant.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

There is no correlation between scale and welfare. End of.

There are, however, valid reasons to be concerned about scale. The primary one being whether or not your business survives. Anyone wants to do anything about that, needs to recognise that all meaningful change is demand driven. This isn't a discussion about 'big ag', it is a discussion about the structure of the food chain.

Agreed.
But in terms of carbon footprint and environmental sustainability, there is.
Scale matters.
It is the economies of scale that drive environmental costs.

 

[delilah]

Show us evidence that mega farms and small farms have no casualty/mortality differences?

Having worked on both you will just have to take my word for it.

Wanting something different is a start

Knowing what you want is a start. I know what I want. A more diverse food chain. What do you want ?

Big Ag is complying with corporate requirements. Big Ag follows the money. Money is louder than small farm appeal.

What I said.

 

[delilah]

Agreed.
But in terms of carbon footprint and environmental sustainability, there is.
Scale matters.
It is the economies of scale that drive environmental costs.

Nope.

As the attached shows, whatever production system is used there is nothing wrong our side of the farm gate.

 

[Scholsey]

The likes of dunbia/blade and other beef contract schemes seem to be the start of trying to make the beef industry more like pig/poultry, interesting to see where it goes, especially with dairy x cross becoming harder and harder to find!

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Nope.

As the attached shows, whatever production system is used there is nothing wrong our side of the farm gate.

Again, I agree. To an extent.

But broadly speaking, less intensive systems are much less reliant on fossil fuels.
Rationalisation will ultimately increase agricultures fossil fuel use and then the supply chain will be able to blame agriculture for that too.

 

[onesiedale]

There is no correlation between scale and welfare. End of.

There are, however, valid reasons to be concerned about scale. The primary one being whether or not your business survives. Anyone wants to do anything about that, needs to recognise that all meaningful change is demand driven. This isn't a discussion about 'big ag', it is a discussion about the structure of the food chain.

you are absolutely right about scale and welfare, however, what the question remains about scale and profitability through rationalisation efficiencies.
We all know margins are tight, yet still the general advice is to produce more and slimline the supply chain.

The unintended consequence of this is to become an open goal for the anti-livestock media, which in turn makes it a PR nightmare to turn around.
The livestock sector then shrugs it's shoulders as more leave and control is retained by fewer processors and production then gets taken away from public view and almost becomes an 'underground' industry feeding a broken supply chain rather than customers.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

you are absolutely right about scale and welfare, however, what the question remains about scale and profitability through rationalisation efficiencies.
We all know margins are tight, yet still the general advice is to produce more and slimline the supply chain.

The unintended consequence of this is to become an open goal for the anti-livestock media, which in turn makes it a PR nightmare to turn around.
The livestock sector then shrugs it's shoulders as more leave and control is retained by fewer processors and production then gets taken away from public view and almost becomes an 'underground' industry feeding a broken supply chain rather than customers.

Thanks,
A great post.
It needs to be said.

 

[Bald n Grumpy]

But look at the competition - The Hourigan family in NY State are expanding to around 5000 cows as we speak.

Was talking to someone who has family dairy farming in the states, he said there were mega farms but there were also still a lot milking a few hundred and plenty milking 40 or so in tie barns

 

[How Dairy]

you are absolutely right about scale and welfare, however, what the question remains about scale and profitability through rationalisation efficiencies.
We all know margins are tight, yet still the general advice is to produce more and slimline the supply chain.

The unintended consequence of this is to become an open goal for the anti-livestock media, which in turn makes it a PR nightmare to turn around.
The livestock sector then shrugs it's shoulders as more leave and control is retained by fewer processors and production then gets taken away from public view and almost becomes an 'underground' industry feeding a broken supply chain rather than customers.

Well scale has to have an impact. The challenge we have is what drives or threatens profitability. I would suggest that markets (inputs and outputs) are a key driver of profit/loss in housed systems whereas climate and cost control become a key driver in profit/loss on an extensive system. Certainly for ruminants. I think you have to control what you can control.

So perhaps the answer is in resilience. At farm level, more resilient farms survive. Resilience is always going to be driven a little by economies of scale but I would say a more resilient farm is one that can protect margin best in a bad year for their respective business. At an industry level, a diverse industry is a more resilient industry. Forgetting milk profile for a second - if the whole dairy industry was spring block calving and we had extreme drought from January to November, where is the milk?

Arguably, those who leave the industry, ought to be those with poor margin retention. That is preferable but I guess the point you are making is that we are losing good smaller scale family farms, which are attractive to the consumer, purely because scale has such an impact on resilience.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Well scale has to have an impact. The challenge we have is what drives or threatens profitability. I would suggest that markets (inputs and outputs) are a key driver of profit/loss in housed systems whereas climate and cost control become a key driver in profit/loss on an extensive system. Certainly for ruminants. I think you have to control what you can control.

So perhaps the answer is in resilience. At farm level, more resilient farms survive. Resilience is always going to be driven a little by economies of scale but I would say a more resilient farm is one that can protect margin best in a bad year for their respective business. At an industry level, a diverse industry is a more resilient industry. Forgetting milk profile for a second - if the whole dairy industry was spring block calving and we had extreme drought from January to November, where is the milk?

Arguably, those who leave the industry, ought to be those with poor margin retention. That is preferable but I guess the point you are making is that we are losing good smaller scale family farms, which are attractive to the consumer, purely because scale has such an impact on resilience.

Apologies for jumping in before @onesiedale replies,
I don't think scale has such an impact on resilience.
I think good smaller scale family farms are inherently more resilient but are having that undermined and removed by the way the rest of the supply chain are manipulating metrics. They don't want resilience, they want reliance.
You control someone who relies on you.

 

[How Dairy]

Apologies for jumping in before @onesiedale replies,
I don't think scale has such an impact on resilience.
I think good smaller scale family farms are inherently more resilient but are having that undermined and removed by the way the rest of the supply chain are manipulating metrics. They don't want resilience, they want reliance.
You control someone who relies on you.

I see what you mean. The challenge isn't necessarily a financial one at a small scale though I suspect there are plenty of small family farms who own land who are subsidising their business if you take imputed costs into account. Effectively, you get farmers personally going without as the money simply isn't there... I am not sure that is resilience. From what I have heard, much of the challenge with small family dairies is with paperwork and red tape. If that could somehow be streamlined or they actually had a scale-related permitting system, maybe that would help?

 

[soapsud]

Well scale has to have an impact. The challenge we have is what drives or threatens profitability. I would suggest that markets (inputs and outputs) are a key driver of profit/loss in housed systems whereas climate and cost control become a key driver in profit/loss on an extensive system. Certainly for ruminants. I think you have to control what you can control.

So perhaps the answer is in resilience. At farm level, more resilient farms survive. Resilience is always going to be driven a little by economies of scale but I would say a more resilient farm is one that can protect margin best in a bad year for their respective business. At an industry level, a diverse industry is a more resilient industry. Forgetting milk profile for a second - if the whole dairy industry was spring block calving and we had extreme drought from January to November, where is the milk?

Arguably, those who leave the industry, ought to be those with poor margin retention. That is preferable but I guess the point you are making is that we are losing good smaller scale family farms, which are attractive to the consumer, purely because scale has such an impact on resilience.

Given this, do you anticipate more and more dairies being permanently housed here in the UK?

Can Big Be Beautiful? Large-scale Livestock Units

Sustainability, or the 'capacity to endure' has three principal pillars: economic, environmental and social, according to Farmerslivery.

www.thecattlesite.com

 

[teslacoils]

"Resilient" can often mean "willing to work for nothing".

 

[Yale]

"Resilient" can often mean "willing to work for nothing".

No different to the sweat shops producing fast fashion. It’s the retailers which make the margin.