how long before we're all organic?

[kiwi pom]

the only yield we should be worried about is profit.

Yes I think that's one of the problems with feeding the world.
It would make sense to grow as much food as possible using all available tech, chem's, GM etc from the worlds best farmable land, transport it wherever its needed then use any less favourable land, that's not needed for food, for conservation, renewable energy etc.
I think the science does back that up but the big problem they completely ignore is the land is owned by people that want/need to make a profit from it and the way things are at the moment, growing food may not be the most profitable. Which is why we have the ridiculous situation of prime arable land growing energy crops or lower yielding organic produce, because its more profitable for the owner/farmer.
I've no idea how you solve this problem though. The rich UK can afford to pay its land owners to look after a huge garden for them on land that could/should be helping to reduce those that don't have enough food on the planet.

 

[farmerm]

Thats pure rubbish
In twenty yrs of organic farming, i never had any serious disease issues
Nitrogen fert weakens the plant cells and lets disease in , and makes it more edible for slugs

Now who is talking rubbish, my crops have grown well past the thread of slug damage before they see any bagged N.... but you are right about N weakened cells however it also increase yield potential and it costs me the same to drill and harvest a 1T crop as a 4T crop.. What are these crops you grow that have never had serious diseases and what yields are you achieving?

 

[Scribus]

MSRs are great in theory. Unfortunately the 'salt' bit does rather challenge conventional material technologies (i.e. metal). Even the most passive metals are prone to corrosion in the presence of heat, stresss and salt. Bear in mind, you need a helluva temperature to melt salt.

They really are great in theory tho - get rid of the plute, and reduce the storage time requirement for all the other gubbins by orders of magnitude. Just need a few of the fundamentals worked out. Bit like fusion really.

Mmmm... No mention of that on the Wikipedia link I posted.

 

[bitwrx]

Mmmm... No mention of that on the Wikipedia link I posted.

It's hidden in the comment about the Chinese effort:
"The project also seeks to test new corrosion resistant materials."

Still working their way towards being a commercial reality. And when you consider the difficulty we're having getting much less technically challenging reactor designs built, I wouldn't hold your breath.

 

[Scribus]

It's hidden in the comment about the Chinese effort:
"The project also seeks to test new corrosion resistant materials."

Still working their way towards being a commercial reality. And when you consider the difficulty we're having getting much less technically challenging reactor designs built, I wouldn't hold your breath.

The challenges are different though. Coping with corrosion rates is a matter of choosing and managing the chemistry as far as I can see from this report here, although it is far from simple

https://www.world-nuclear.org/infor...d-future-generation/molten-salt-reactors.aspx

The greatest challenge to conventional reactors is the bad press they have received over the years.

 

[FonterraFarmer]

can we have a list ?

Just about everything from NZ Look up the pdf "Food Miles, Fact or Fiction" from 2007.

 

[Dead Rabbits]

The real question is, how long can land degeneration continue before something goes bang

You can be regenerative degenerative organic or non-organic , holistic altruistic or sopsolistic - I really can't see you "all" being anything, as there is an obvious surplus of farmers and only so much money to go around.

Peak soil anyone?

 

[Tom_o_m]

We went natural/grass fed but stopped short of getting certified. It helped us sell more direct through meat boxes but added no value at market.

I think it is a welcome trend.

Tom

 

[ollie989898]

MSRs are great in theory. Unfortunately the 'salt' bit does rather challenge conventional material technologies (i.e. metal). Even the most passive metals are prone to corrosion in the presence of heat, stresss and salt. Bear in mind, you need a helluva temperature to melt salt.

They really are great in theory tho - get rid of the plute, and reduce the storage time requirement for all the other gubbins by orders of magnitude. Just need a few of the fundamentals worked out. Bit like fusion really.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay easier than fusion. Fusion might never happen.

MSRs by contrast, walk in the park.

Chloride or flouride salts melts starting at about 300 degrees, some are more like 900. Depends on the mixture you use. Use zirconium flouride. Avoid lithium due to tritium build up.

Don't need to worry about corrosion- keep the salts highly reducing, same way they protect ships from corrosion, like sacrificial anodes. Stainless steels and chloride salts can be made nearly kinetically stable, they corrode, but an extremely low rate.

Check out the SSR by moltex energy, no moderator so no graphite. No water anywhere near it. Cooling by convection. Existing internal structures all made from already nuclear qualified materials and the fuel is held in regular fuel bundles so no problem with IAEA safguarding. No lithium so no tritium to worry about. They are going to build their prototype in Canada where the regulatory environment is less problematic than the USA or UK.

Fuel is held as uranium or plutonium cholride so its liquid. Can't meltdown, its already melted. Even if you drop a bomb into the core and destroy the low you end up with a coolant salt mixed with fuel salt, all sub-critical and though it is red hot, its not going anywhere. The boiling point of salts is insane and furthermore, any fission products as held as chloride or fluoride salts- all non-volatile so can't float away.

 

[delilah]

Just about everything from NZ Look up the pdf "Food Miles, Fact or Fiction" from 2007.

Thanks, I will. Attached the counter-argument.

 

[7610 super q]

I grew organic crops for 27 years. I'm afraid there's some rubbish talked on this thread. At best you'll get 50% of conventional yields. Possibly even less with spuds/ veg after the pests have had a go. Might not be a bad thing, lower yields = higher prices. Imports would somehow have to be restricted though.

 

[glasshouse]

Now who is talking rubbish, my crops have grown well past the thread of slug damage before they see any bagged N.... but you are right about N weakened cells however it also increase yield potential and it costs me the same to drill and harvest a 1T crop as a 4T crop.. What are these crops you grow that have never had serious diseases and what yields are you achieving?

Wheat after rape has plenty bag N left in the soil.

 

[FonterraFarmer]

Thanks, I will. Attached the counter-argument.

Can I counter the counter-arguement by the fact that when to first meat exported to the UK was by sail and not by powered ship requiring fossil fuels for transportation? Has been done in the past ,so no reason why it could not be applicable in the future???

 

[oldoaktree]

But there would be no organic premium as the market would be full of it, organic prices would have to compete with whatever the cheapest food that could be imported could be bought for and as mentioned earlier, imported food wouldn’t be expected to come up to same standards.

Dose it not cost more to produce organic food along with the reduced yields this would lead to a price rise due to supply and demand .

 

[farmerm]

Wheat after rape has plenty bag N left in the soil.

I don't grow rape, probably goes to explain why I haven't used more than a bag of slug pellets in the past decade... Is there not a higher level of N in the soil after ripping up an organic clover ley than after a crop of rape that had its last bagged N 4 months earlier?

 

[graham99]

You mean how long before some populist 'band waggon' riding fudgewitts politicians throw us all under the environmental bus, while making 'trade deals' allowing the cheapest non-organic chlorinated sh!t food from countries with lowest welfare and production standards ?

- I would think about 10.

its the bankers throwing you under the bus.

 

[Gong Farmer]

The break effect of rape is not due to leftover bag N. It is very efficient at turning applied N into biomass and it is the high amount of this in the soil that gives a following wheat such a boost.

 

[farmerm]

Dose it not cost more to produce organic food along with the reduced yields this would lead to a price rise due to supply and demand .

Organic food can be cheaper to grow per Ha but more expensive per tonne because of the lower yields.
In global terms the UK is tiny in both population and food production terms. If the UK unilaterally ceased to produce any food whatsoever the impact on global food prices would be diddly squat.

 

[graham99]

Is there a market for thistles? That is all I can grow really well on my organic bit - well there are about 7 acres of brambles, I suppose, too.

well you are not organic then. the whole point of organic is to produce what the land can sustain.
with out having to truck in crap to keep the bank manager happy.

 

[graham99]

Roundup Ready crops are fantastic







If you happen to be a Monsanto shareholder, just another way to have you by the rubbish if you are just a farmer

well there will be no farmers if they can only farm with round up.
the townies a waking up to the tax advantage's that farmer's have.
why do you think townies are taking an interest in farming .