How to rent a farm...

[Mule37]

Afternoon all, long time reader first time poster here,

So bit of background about me, dad and his brother own a 350 acre farm, they sold up years ago and just have arable now on contract farming... I moved away to see how agriculture is done elsewhere and have done fairly well for myself working for other people and renting blocks of ground here and there for sheep... now id quite like too move back home and take on the farm and put my stamp on it, not done an in-depth business plan or anything that far yet but my initial thoughts were too continue the arable, modernise a couple of the sheds and look at finishing beef cattle using home grown corn and I reckon I could run around 400 sheep on the ground that isn’t suitable for arable and currently rented out too a suckler man...
So I finally plucked up the courage to have “the talk” with my dad and it would appear him and his brother have every intention of selling up in the next couple of years as they don’t think there’s any future in agriculture and they’re both 65-70 now...
Not really sure which direction too turn now as I was offering too rent the farm off them I wasn’t expecting a hand me down ...

What are others thoughts? Continue on trying to pursuade them with a business plan/model and rent offer? ... scrap the idea and look for a rented farm somewhere in the UK which seem gold dust?
Scrap the dream all together and carry on working all the hours god gives for somebody else’s dream?

feeling at a bit of a loss ...

 

[chaffcutter]

You must surely be best placed to persuade them to rent to you, as trying to get a farm to rent under an FBT is a lottery as too many people seem to be willing to bid silly money just to get a foot in the door.
Do you have any siblings or cousins? If so, retaining the land in order to reduce Capital transfer Tax on the death of your parents and uncle may be a consideration in your favour.
I would be doing my best to persuade them to let you have a go if you are sure you want to take the risk.

 

[livestock 1]

Did you ever get the chance to farm with your father or uncle or both?

 

[Werzle]

Afternoon all, long time reader first time poster here,

So bit of background about me, dad and his brother own a 350 acre farm, they sold up years ago and just have arable now on contract farming... I moved away to see how agriculture is done elsewhere and have done fairly well for myself working for other people and renting blocks of ground here and there for sheep... now id quite like too move back home and take on the farm and put my stamp on it, not done an in-depth business plan or anything that far yet but my initial thoughts were too continue the arable, modernise a couple of the sheds and look at finishing beef cattle using home grown corn and I reckon I could run around 400 sheep on the ground that isn’t suitable for arable and currently rented out too a suckler man...
So I finally plucked up the courage to have “the talk” with my dad and it would appear him and his brother have every intention of selling up in the next couple of years as they don’t think there’s any future in agriculture and they’re both 65-70 now...
Not really sure which direction too turn now as I was offering too rent the farm off them I wasn’t expecting a hand me down ...

What are others thoughts? Continue on trying to pursuade them with a business plan/model and rent offer? ... scrap the idea and look for a rented farm somewhere in the UK which seem gold dust?
Scrap the dream all together and carry on working all the hours god gives for somebody else’s dream?

feeling at a bit of a loss ...

Contact local auctioneers and state your looking for a farm to rent, theres plenty of old boys not actively looking to pack up and leave the farm but who would be willing to let most of it . Falling out with relations or getting frustrated with them will only make you all sick, live and let live. I wouldnt knock working for others either, theres plenty of times when costly things are going wrong and you have to pay for them that having nothing more invested in a days work or pay other than your flask and lunchbox seems great

 

[Mule37]

You must surely be best placed to persuade them to rent to you, as trying to get a farm to rent under an FBT is a lottery as too many people seem to be willing to bid silly money just to get a foot in the door.
Do you have any siblings or cousins? If so, retaining the land in order to reduce Capital transfer Tax on the death of your parents and uncle may be a consideration in your favour.
I would be doing my best to persuade them to let you have a go if you are sure you want to take the risk.

My uncle has 3 kids,
I have a brother
I know I could make it work but it’s combination I think of he doesn’t think I’m capable and he’s never wanted me to farm always wanted me to get a trade lol

 

[Mule37]

Did you ever get the chance to farm with your father or uncle or both?

Worked there every weekend until I was 16 and then he made me find an apprenticeship so only worked there in busy periods but started working for other local farmers instead... me and my uncle have never really got on great

 

[livestock 1]

Worked there every weekend until I was 16 and then he made me find an apprenticeship so only worked there in busy periods but started working for other local farmers instead... me and my uncle have never really got on great

It’s very difficult. Family and business requires a lot of understanding from every angle. Whenever there’s money family and business there’s potential for trouble

 

[Mule37]

It’s very difficult. Family and business requires a lot of understanding from every angle. Whenever there’s money family and business there’s potential for trouble

He says the main reason for selling up is my uncle is 70 next year and wants a pay out but don’t really see why he even needs a pay out he got 1.2million for development land 3 years ago and if he’s 70 he can’t exactly take it all with him.... I knew I had no hope of just simply being passed down the farm like some lucky beggars but really hoped the idea of me renting it from them would be a good sell...

 

[livestock 1]

He says the main reason for selling up is my uncle is 70 next year and wants a pay out but don’t really see why he even needs a pay out he got 1.2million for development land 3 years ago and if he’s 70 he can’t exactly take it all with him.... I knew I had no hope of just simply being passed down the farm like some lucky beggars but really hoped the idea of me renting it from them would be a good sell...

This happens all the time. Very difficult

 

[teslacoils]

Just go rent one elsewhere. Don't begrudge what your relatives do with their bit. You asked, put it behind you and look elsewhere.

 

[MRT]

They don't want you to rent it. Having been in a similar situation I would strongly suggest you accept it and move on because there is nothing you can do or say to change it.

 

[fgc325j]

Worked there every weekend until I was 16 and then he made me find an apprenticeship so only worked there in busy periods but started working for other local farmers instead... me and my uncle have never really got on great

Tbh - if you and your uncle have never got on, what makes you think/hope he'll make a good
landlord/ business partner. A week ago there was a thread about a degenerating father/son
relationship - one of the best things you can do is to learn from other people's mistakes.

 

[v8willy]

Even if you did rent it off them there's a chance they would try telling what to do, kinda farming the way they wanted with someone else footing the bill.

It's easy for all us to say look elsewhere but we have no "emotional" attatchment to the place, it being your home farm, tho maybe you don't either?

Emotional attatchment is not really the right term but can't think of the right one.

 

[Mule37]

Even if you did rent it off them there's a chance they would try telling what to do, kinda farming the way they wanted with someone else footing the bill.

It's easy for all us to say look elsewhere but we have no "emotional" attatchment to the place, it being your home farm, tho maybe you don't either?

Emotional attatchment is not really the right term but can't think of the right one.

That was one worry I had to start with... the whole reason they sold up was because they said it didn’t pay but everything they did was like something out of a back to the future film so behind the times it was unreal nothing was done efficiently or cost effectively... iv always got on well and worked well with my dad but my uncle never agreed with me trying to modernise practices at the farm “the way we’ve always done it” kind of attitude ... but it’s where I know its where I love, the place could be so well set up with a tiny bit of investment which I have capital for anyways .... Iv given him something to think about and asked him to talk too his brother about it and I’ll try to broach the subject again in a couple weeks see weather he’s had any changes of mindset otherwise I’ll have too start looking for a farm tenancy which will probably never appear to suit my business model I have in mind...

 

[le bon paysan]

Afternoon all, long time reader first time poster here,

So bit of background about me, dad and his brother own a 350 acre farm, they sold up years ago and just have arable now on contract farming... I moved away to see how agriculture is done elsewhere and have done fairly well for myself working for other people and renting blocks of ground here and there for sheep... now id quite like too move back home and take on the farm and put my stamp on it, not done an in-depth business plan or anything that far yet but my initial thoughts were too continue the arable, modernise a couple of the sheds and look at finishing beef cattle using home grown corn and I reckon I could run around 400 sheep on the ground that isn’t suitable for arable and currently rented out too a suckler man...
So I finally plucked up the courage to have “the talk” with my dad and it would appear him and his brother have every intention of selling up in the next couple of years as they don’t think there’s any future in agriculture and they’re both 65-70 now...
Not really sure which direction too turn now as I was offering too rent the farm off them I wasn’t expecting a hand me down ...

What are others thoughts? Continue on trying to pursuade them with a business plan/model and rent offer? ... scrap the idea and look for a rented farm somewhere in the UK which seem gold dust?
Scrap the dream all together and carry on working all the hours god gives for somebody else’s dream?

feeling at a bit of a loss ...

Emigrate, worked for me

 

[little_p]

He says the main reason for selling up is my uncle is 70 next year and wants a pay out but don’t really see why he even needs a pay out he got 1.2million for development land 3 years ago and if he’s 70 he can’t exactly take it all with him.... I knew I had no hope of just simply being passed down the farm like some lucky beggars but really hoped the idea of me renting it from them would be a good sell...

£1.2m doesn't go far between your three cousins. For the amount to be really life-changing for them and their families the farm would more than likely have to be sold. And then there is also your brother that your Dad might think is entitled to a pull as well.
As @livestock 1 says money, family and business has the potential for trouble.

Maybe your father is using some kind of reverse psychology here and trying to get you to prove that you really want to take over the farm?
The only positive levers that I can see you having is (a) there is the greater potential for tax avoidance if the farm is kept and farmed (b) the farm stays in the family name. The brother and cousins might even want this as well (c) the asset would be better maintained if it was rented and maintained by a family member.

I went to an interesting seminar on succession planning by Sian Bushell. She certainly understood farming family businesses. Maybe a chat or a meeting with her might give you some pointers.

 

[som farmer]

try asking them for 'help' doing your tenancy bid, might just make them think you are serious, and might 'wake them up' to what can be done with a new set of ideas. But don't get to excited, and keep looking for oppurtunities, I expect, with Brexit (or not), there will be big changes happening to farming, and your oppurtunities may well increase. Good luck, and keep looking !

 

[tepapa]

Being cynical I think if you did get the tenancy, in a few years or so your uncle may fall off the perch and the cousins will be trying to sell their half from under you. You've set up your business without really getting the return out of the set up costs and you'll be looking to find another tenancy. You may be better looking for one with longer term as I doubt you'd get a long term tenancy of your uncle at his age. IMO.

 

[Mule37]

Being cynical I think if you did get the tenancy, in a few years or so your uncle may fall off the perch and the cousins will be trying to sell their half from under you. You've set up your business without really getting the return out of the set up costs and you'll be looking to find another tenancy. You may be better looking for one with longer term as I doubt you'd get a long term tenancy of your uncle at his age. IMO.

This is very true I’d probably been quite nieve in thinking too myself my cousins are in there 40s now and never did a days work on the farm or showed any interest but yes money does strange things to people....

 

[neilo]

This is very true I’d probably been quite nieve in thinking too myself my cousins are in there 40s now and never did a days work on the farm or showed any interest but yes money does strange things to people....

It’s a capital asset worth several £ million with several potential beneficiaries. It would be incredibly naive to expect them not to want something from it imo, and a sustainable Ag rent really would be a poor return on that capital, unless they are looking for capital growth instead, which will just delay the day it’s sold from under you.

Btw, i’d Look again at your costings for finishing bought in stores on homegrown grain. Sticking it on a lorry could well return more profit, without the capital being tied up on animals that may die. I’d sooner run more sheep or arable, even if it meant wintering some of those sheep in the cattle sheds.