How Tricky Is It To Put A Shed Up Yourself?

[gusbs5502]

if you dont mind ill call you Gus, gusb5502

the time the CE came out i inquired about it to see what was the process if i wanted to go down that road.
there was a small litany of hurdles i had to jump over to complete it, its 2 yrs ago since i looked into it but it involved some courses, a weld test and certification , plenty of paperwork and a workshop inspection.
i was quoted 8k by 3 different crowds doing the certification so they were all singing off the same hymn sheet to me.
things may have changed since but back in 14 that was the gig.

Now, im annoyed about it but at the same time i agree that standards had to be improved in some way for there was/is a lot of bad workmanship/design out there re shed frames and its hard to cover everyone so a blanket rule was set up, fair enough bar the cost.

for the amount of sheds id make in a year, as its only one of a few different jobs i do here, it wasnt going to pay me to spend the likes of that money to go legal.
i rang the NSAI over here and asked about it,

i asked the lady who was going to police it, she said nobody.

i asked her if i made a shed that you could land a helicopter on, she said id be in a different class (akin to sky scrapers) and if anything happened to it then Id be in far more trouble.

i asked her why should i be worried about it then so and she asked me if id be willing to drive on the road with no insurance, i said i wouldnt and she said, then dont make any sheds...

it was on the grape vine at the time that a few crowds doing the CE certification had done reports for some insurance company's, so my guess is, and you can be sure of it , that if John doe puts up a shed that isnt CE marked after june 2014 then there could be a lot of folk in bother.
the man that made it is in trouble, the customer, Who it was reported would be 50% at fault because he was to know about the CE scheme, and the man that made it was 50% or more at fault for not telling the customer about it.
and the insurance crowd probably wouldn't t pay out because of the above, along with the fact there is a damn good chance that they wouldn't pay out on anything inside the shed that was damaged too, even tho in the case of a tractor, that had its own insurance it probably wouldn't be covered either.
you just know the ins crowd would love to find any loop hole they could jump through to avoid coughing up.

so i pretty much quit the sheds, i dont miss the money as the void has been filled with more workshop work so thats grand by me tbh.
id do an extension to an existing shed using the same if not better steel, knee and apex joints, id consider that a safe enough bet but id tell the customer the craic and if he was happy to sign the invoice to say he bought the shed knowing there was no CE then that id pass my safety meter tbh.


the sheds fair enough.
but say a lad comes here and he wants me to weld a nut or a plate to a steel lintel he is using for over a door in his new house,
i cant do that either...
basically to me the best way to look at it was if a human could touch it, then it needed a CE cert, handrails, barriers and such.
that imo is mad.

No need to say without prejudiced on anything here unless your needin to cover your own butt on a certain thing.
this is an internet forum, the advice here is worth about as much as anyone paid for it, common sense should suggest to folk that nothing is to be taken as a given, its just good folk doing their best to help guide lads in the right direction from their own experiences for free.
there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum, every day it impresses me tbh.



as for the sheds, self praise is no praise imo so here is a pic or two of the kind of work id do.
im sure there could be room for improvement but id be pretty happy with it.

if you dont mind ill call you Gus, gusb5502

the time the CE came out i inquired about it to see what was the process if i wanted to go down that road.
there was a small litany of hurdles i had to jump over to complete it, its 2 yrs ago since i looked into it but it involved some courses, a weld test and certification , plenty of paperwork and a workshop inspection.
i was quoted 8k by 3 different crowds doing the certification so they were all singing off the same hymn sheet to me.
things may have changed since but back in 14 that was the gig.

Now, im annoyed about it but at the same time i agree that standards had to be improved in some way for there was/is a lot of bad workmanship/design out there re shed frames and its hard to cover everyone so a blanket rule was set up, fair enough bar the cost.

for the amount of sheds id make in a year, as its only one of a few different jobs i do here, it wasnt going to pay me to spend the likes of that money to go legal.
i rang the NSAI over here and asked about it,

i asked the lady who was going to police it, she said nobody.

i asked her if i made a shed that you could land a helicopter on, she said id be in a different class (akin to sky scrapers) and if anything happened to it then Id be in far more trouble.

i asked her why should i be worried about it then so and she asked me if id be willing to drive on the road with no insurance, i said i wouldnt and she said, then dont make any sheds...

it was on the grape vine at the time that a few crowds doing the CE certification had done reports for some insurance company's, so my guess is, and you can be sure of it , that if John doe puts up a shed that isnt CE marked after june 2014 then there could be a lot of folk in bother.
the man that made it is in trouble, the customer, Who it was reported would be 50% at fault because he was to know about the CE scheme, and the man that made it was 50% or more at fault for not telling the customer about it.
and the insurance crowd probably wouldn't t pay out because of the above, along with the fact there is a damn good chance that they wouldn't pay out on anything inside the shed that was damaged too, even tho in the case of a tractor, that had its own insurance it probably wouldn't be covered either.
you just know the ins crowd would love to find any loop hole they could jump through to avoid coughing up.

so i pretty much quit the sheds, i dont miss the money as the void has been filled with more workshop work so thats grand by me tbh.
id do an extension to an existing shed using the same if not better steel, knee and apex joints, id consider that a safe enough bet but id tell the customer the craic and if he was happy to sign the invoice to say he bought the shed knowing there was no CE then that id pass my safety meter tbh.


the sheds fair enough.
but say a lad comes here and he wants me to weld a nut or a plate to a steel lintel he is using for over a door in his new house,
i cant do that either...
basically to me the best way to look at it was if a human could touch it, then it needed a CE cert, handrails, barriers and such.
that imo is mad.

No need to say without prejudiced on anything here unless your needin to cover your own butt on a certain thing.
this is an internet forum, the advice here is worth about as much as anyone paid for it, common sense should suggest to folk that nothing is to be taken as a given, its just good folk doing their best to help guide lads in the right direction from their own experiences for free.
there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum, every day it impresses me tbh.



as for the sheds, self praise is no praise imo so here is a pic or two of the kind of work id do.
im sure there could be room for improvement but id be pretty happy with it.

You make some very good points Tinman. Although it is easy to be sceptical about any new the underlying intention was to make buildings safer and to protect the public from cowboys.

That said, as we approcahed the cut off date beyond which you could be shut down by trading standards etc there were too few who could carry out the audit and certification process and too many who had waited too long before acting, thus, as sure death and taxes, the price inevitably shot up and the 8k figure of yours comes as no surprise. The good news is that now things are settling the cost has come down for a number of reasons. This is good for the customer surely ?

Take the case of the welder before CE marking... many were and still are competant and diligent They invest in learning their craft, gain the correct qualifiactions and understand the theory behind what they are doing. A few do not and believe they are invincible, some don't care and just want a fastbuck. Companies (and it is usually companies) who have the CE mark now have a system where they can demonstrate that they can prove the provenance of their material and that their standard of workmanship is consitently up to the required standard and so on. This sets a more level playing field for customers and can improve the safety of structures.

I can see you have in interest in this topic so you may look at the CE marking again... who knows you may have that satisfying feeling of finding that the price has gone down......you will still have plenty customers who will pay a fair price for your skills and enjoy the reassurance that they are dealing with someone who has taken the time to set up sytems that help prevent dangerous materials and unreliable workmanship getting through the supply chain.

 

[gusbs5502]

I asked for a rough price for the calcs of a cattle building you talk about the £300 guy and tell us about all the pit falls so i take it your in the £1000 +camp the normal (£300) calcs would include all the connections and maybe a separate sheet showing eaves /apex connections and all the relevant information to detail the steelwork why any one would want any more or clear and concise drawings i don't know and if they could not interpret a simple set of calcs. i would be concerned about there ability to undertake the job, And as for £1000-£2000 to draw a simple cattle building up with so many repetitive items sounds like day light robbery to me but that is just my opinion

 

[gusbs5502]

Hello Forever Fendt.
Perhaps I should have been clearer about the figures I gave and I appologise for not answering your question more directly. I had really aimed them at say a Farmer who maybe puts up a new shed every 30 or 40 years and does not have the time to learn all about the ins and outs of the shed industry but does want to say, project manage it themselves...and later maybe a new access, hard standing, drainage, floor slab, concrete walling and the procurement of the materials etc.

Let's also say the Farmer wants to be reassured that it will be ok, that they have paid a fair price and they have taken all reasonable steps to protect their investment.

If this is to happen then someone has to be able to take an overall look and take responsibility for the whole design. For example, a portal frame with typical isolated pads under snow load. There is a horizontal thrust on the pads. To get an efficient pad we often make use of the soil at the side of the pad to resist, in part, some of this load. Someone then digs in a drain, puts in pea gravel or other loose material next to the pads and suddenly the legs of the frame move sideways......

I too would be concerned if a fabricator could not interperete a simple set of calcs. The devil is in the detail...."and all the relevant information to detail the steelwork...." I would be reassured if the fabricator came and said .... look this is a generic detail but are you sure it's applicable to this particular frame.... there are many calc packs with generic details.....

If you know what you are doing it is possible to get a set of frame calcs at a low price but unless you have a lot of experience then you may wish to pay somewhat more.

So for the average person trying to work out what budget you need then, as we all know, it can be unwise to pick the lowest figures you can find.

The new Construction rules (CDM) apply to many part of the farming industry now so while you might pay less for a set of calcs you could just end up spending more else where.

In terms of the detailing then I can see how this suspicion of robbery arises. Yes there seems to be repetetive work and you may think that someone sits there for a half hour and presto here is the frame all detailed. You will see videos on utube of buildings getting designed up in fifteen min plus time for a fag break!....

The reality is somewhat different. One of the detailers I work with spent, I think, 15 years on the fabrication shop floor, then moved into the drawing office / site side for 10 years and now works as a contractor. His mistakes are very few and far between and this pays dividends.... if you get one hole in the wrong place this can be costly as it's not just the time it takes to drill another on site but what other problems arise because of this.

Again it's all about balancing up the risk... yes it may sound like robbery to you but to the less experienced who may not be able to pick up on any mistakes before the frame is fabricated I think it is worth considering paying something around the amount I have mentioned and usually the detailer will be around to help out if you want a minor change later on and so forth.

Lastly, just like any business the price drops a bit for regular customers who pay on time, detailers are no different.

 

[BobGreen]

@gusbs5502
Have you any recommendations for software for drawing fabrication drawings ?

 

[Forever Fendt]

Hello Forever Fendt.
Perhaps I should have been clearer about the figures I gave and I appologise for not answering your question more directly. I had really aimed them at say a Farmer who maybe puts up a new shed every 30 or 40 years and does not have the time to learn all about the ins and outs of the shed industry but does want to say, project manage it themselves...and later maybe a new access, hard standing, drainage, floor slab, concrete walling and the procurement of the materials etc.

Let's also say the Farmer wants to be reassured that it will be ok, that they have paid a fair price and they have taken all reasonable steps to protect their investment.

If this is to happen then someone has to be able to take an overall look and take responsibility for the whole design. For example, a portal frame with typical isolated pads under snow load. There is a horizontal thrust on the pads. To get an efficient pad we often make use of the soil at the side of the pad to resist, in part, some of this load. Someone then digs in a drain, puts in pea gravel or other loose material next to the pads and suddenly the legs of the frame move sideways......

I too would be concerned if a fabricator could not interperete a simple set of calcs. The devil is in the detail...."and all the relevant information to detail the steelwork...." I would be reassured if the fabricator came and said .... look this is a generic detail but are you sure it's applicable to this particular frame.... there are many calc packs with generic details.....

If you know what you are doing it is possible to get a set of frame calcs at a low price but unless you have a lot of experience then you may wish to pay somewhat more.

So for the average person trying to work out what budget you need then, as we all know, it can be unwise to pick the lowest figures you can find.

The new Construction rules (CDM) apply to many part of the farming industry now so while you might pay less for a set of calcs you could just end up spending more else where.

In terms of the detailing then I can see how this suspicion of robbery arises. Yes there seems to be repetetive work and you may think that someone sits there for a half hour and presto here is the frame all detailed. You will see videos on utube of buildings getting designed up in fifteen min plus time for a fag break!....

The reality is somewhat different. One of the detailers I work with spent, I think, 15 years on the fabrication shop floor, then moved into the drawing office / site side for 10 years and now works as a contractor. His mistakes are very few and far between and this pays dividends.... if you get one hole in the wrong place this can be costly as it's not just the time it takes to drill another on site but what other problems arise because of this.

Again it's all about balancing up the risk... yes it may sound like robbery to you but to the less experienced who may not be able to pick up on any mistakes before the frame is fabricated I think it is worth considering paying something around the amount I have mentioned and usually the detailer will be around to help out if you want a minor change later on and so forth.

Lastly, just like any business the price drops a bit for regular customers who pay on time, detailers are no different.

Thank you for the reply it has explained a lot to me and goes some way to justifying the costs you have quoted and i agree with the points you make about the fabrication drawings as the editing is important to provide the correct information

 

[gusbs5502]

@gusbs5502
Have you any recommendations for software for drawing fabrication drawings ?

Hi BobGreen.

The detailers I work mostly with use Advanced Steel which piggybacks off the Autodesk platform. One of the well known packages is Tekla which is is part of the Trimble setup. Both these massive companies have all sorts of other packages that are compatible with the other products they have.

One of the key components is that as well as producing a set of drawings (usually in pdf format) they also produce the numerical control (nc) files which plug into the fabricators machines. An nc file is just a text file and a set of dxf files are a standard drawing file format.

There is in some respects a bit of a barrier to entry in that the above come at a price and the learning curve can be quite frustrating. One detailer told me it took him 18 - 24 month to really start to see a return on his efforts and he came up from the shop floor.

There are companies who offer deals from time to time on software.... we'll give you a good deal and if you buy enough steel from us we will give you a further refund etc etc. You can also do a pay as you go deal where you pay quarterly, monthly and so on.

Although many fabricators want the information presented in this format don't despair.... What I do if I have only a couple of beams or so is to produce an "old fashioned drawing" laid out in the same way that say Advanced Steel produces. The fabricator will input the sizes into his machine beam drill software at their end, check that his machine is going to do what it is supposed to do and press the start button.

This way I save getting the detailer involved and keep my hand in on the drawing side. While the fabricator might add a bit onto their price for this as it takes a bit more time it does I think still make this worth doing.

I hope this helps.

 

[gusbs5502]

As an after thought, you can have a look on utube at what some of these packages do. If you have any more questions then just ask and I'll try and answer them if I can.

 

[BobGreen]

As an after thought, you can have a look on utube at what some of these packages do. If you have any more questions then just ask and I'll try and answer them if I can.

Wasn't thinking of anything as sophisicated as that! Just software for drawings which would be printable for staff to use for welding , drilling and punching. Most small firms do not have access to computer controlled drilling or punching equipment but rely on old fashioned tape measures as to where cleats etc are to be welded on

 

[gusbs5502]

Wasn't thinking of anything as sophisicated as that! Just software for drawings which would be printable for staff to use for welding , drilling and punching. Most small firms do not have access to computer controlled drilling or punching equipment but rely on old fashioned tape measures as to where cleats etc are to be welded on

Hello again,

I should have finished the job sorry! You can get something like Autocad light which will do all you need by the sound of it. From memory I think this is about £ 600 - 700 + vat. Alternatively there is ProgeCAD. I have this but don't really use it much. From memory this was about £300 for the professional version. For what you pay I found it a good deal although it's a bit clunky (probably just me not using it properly) but it will work in 3D and open many of the file formats you encounter. There is Google sketchup free version and you may be able to get a plugin for this which will help with the drafting but I'm not sure.

Lots of the software houses will give you a free trail and by the sound of it something like ProgeCAD looks like it might work for you, try something like this before you buy it. You will hear people say this is the best and so on but I would always try it out for free first.

.

 

[Unbrako precast]

In the case of engineers , we have actually found some of the really expensive ones to be terrible.
Paying high does not guarantee a good result.
That said , an in depth analysis of a project requires a greater amount of time , which costs more but can save money and of course improve the finished product.

 

[Sussex Martin]

After the inevitable sharp intake of breath, could someone tell me exactly how tricky it is to put your own cattle shed up? I'm not going to inflame any more by saying stuff like "I'm pretty good with Lego and know which end of a screwdriver is which" but are there some parts that really need doing by a professional, and some that can be done by normal folk? For example, if I got someone in to do X, could I do the rest?

If you act anything like your avatar then JFDI should be a breeze .

 

[MickMoor]

You make some very good points Tinman. Although it is easy to be sceptical about any new the underlying intention was to make buildings safer and to protect the public from cowboys.

I took it that big business was losing out to more nimble small fabricators, so supported the introduction of CE marking to stitch them up. My experiences were similar to Tinman, when it was suggested, but for the small amount of sheds we did it really was not worth the bother.

 

[gusbs5502]

Hello MickMoor

“I took it that big business was losing out to more nimble small fabricators.... CE marking to stitch them up”

I have tried to keep my answer as shortish possible so forgive the gaps.

Yes I’m sure that was the intent of some. It would be naive to believe otherwise as this happens in many other industries, so why not the steel industry.

This is still very much a hot topic and it can provoke some pretty strong responses. I’ll now touch on a very few of the polar opposite arguments and theories I have heard.

At the political level it was suggested that if we introduced the CE mark in the UK we would be able to sell and erect our buildings all over the EU and beyond, thus, we would all benefit beyond our wildest dreams. Hopefully, someone can provide some figures on how much we have.

“The code writers and trade bodies need something to do” cf “The British Standards, other supporting codes and standards are out dated and parts had been shown to be unsafe in cases, so we have to have a root and branch overhaul”.

“I’m a small fabricator that wants to invest but can’t generate enough profit as I’m being undercut by people selling sub standard Russian, Chinese etc steel stuck together by someone who has been welding a week”.

“I’m a big fabricator and have lots of advanced technology, personnel and want to do large UK government projects here and overseas. I have invested heavily and this will move us up to the top level whatever that is. I can’t do UK Gov work as a precondition is that we are CE marked as this maintains fair competition between all countries in the EU......” cf “This is nuts as we seem to win less work in the EU than EU countries do in the UK, it’s not a level playing field anyway never has been!”.

My own view is that something needed to be done as there were some who engaging in some pretty dangerous practices. Even now this is still going on. With hindsight this process could possibly have been handled in better way as there is no doubt that it has introduced cost. While I believe that safety is paramount, I also recognise that if competition is reduced this does not benefit the consumer or the producer in the long run.

To finish on a high note. The costs of getting your CE mark have reduced as people have, for example, become more familiar with the process. I know from experience that some of the best innovative ideas come from small companies and this benefits us all. Maybe if Brexit goes ahead then the CE mark will be consigned to history but if so, it will probably be replaced with something similar, maybe even better, which will recognise the embedded skill and expertise lying in companies such as the ones you are involved in. Don’t give up... we all need you !

 

[designanddetail]

I do wish you would come to me Gus with your £1-£2K detailing budgets for a cattle shed. Detailing this building at the moment, 120m wide and 14.5m to the eaves but not a patch on £1k per cattle shed ;-) can do 3or4 a week of the cattle sheds, not 1 per 4 weeks like this one.

 

[gusbs5502]

Good morning Design and Detail.

Your most welcome to PM me and we can have a chat.

Gus

 

[aidan]

View attachment 478088

I do wish you would come to me Gus with your £1-£2K detailing budgets for a cattle shed. Detailing this building at the moment, 120m wide and 14.5m to the eaves but not a patch on £1k per cattle shed ;-) can do 3or4 a week of the cattle sheds, not 1 per 4 weeks like this one.

Thats a factory or something Ill hazard a guess.

Can you tell us more about what your doing there please. I have a PHD in Engineering and did some FEA so Im v interested. Ive never seen the calculation file for an aircraft hanger so Id love to know more please.

 

[Blackleg]

Wasn't thinking of anything as sophisicated as that! Most small firms do not have access to computer controlled drilling or punching equipment

they also produce the numerical control (nc) files which plug into the fabricators machines.

These are my drilling and punching machines- Kate, Lauren and Eve They're not nc controlled and I wouldn't dare to try plugging into them!

On a serious note this is an excellent thread, thanks to all who have made a contribution