HS2 - who’s affected?

I've watched the BBC Panorama programme; ''HS2, Going off the rails'' on iPlayer. Never really looked into it much, but wow, not really sure what to say.

It's 2019 in 11 days, the NHS is in crisis, funding for everything is forever being cut and people are still living on the streets, but somehow; HS2, supposedly costing £56 billion, with a CEO on over £600,000 a year, who smirks uncontrollably when asked about how he feels about practically ruining peoples lives and businesses, then gives a totally abstract answer and waffles on about how great he thinks it is.... is somewhat ok?!

All I can continue to think is, ''What the f*ck....''

I am not concerned with the cost of HS2. I want to know why the UK is still pumping billions into the foreign aid budget, for countries like India who are wealthy enough to have nuclear weapons and a space program!

The NHS has more than just problems related to money.
 

essexpete

Member
Location
Essex
I am not concerned with the cost of HS2. I want to know why the UK is still pumping billions into the foreign aid budget, for countries like India who are wealthy enough to have nuclear weapons and a space program!

The NHS has more than just problems related to money.
Quite agree although we seem to leave some genuinely needy areas of the world to fend for them selves.
 

ste

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
Why can't they improve the existing lines to the standard of HS2?

Mainly because the cost of the improvements to the overheads alone would be prohibitive. Only the new stuff that has been put up between Paddington and Cardiff would be suitable for the speed, every other line would need to be completely replaced. Not sure on the track, as I do the overheads, but would suspect that again would need a major redesign and reinstall to comply with the higher speed, let alone some of the curves. Then you'd have the public interface to improve, so all level crossings, foot paths etc closed and either bridged or diverted, increased security fencing etc.

To get what they're wanting in terms of speed and time gains the cheapest option is to build new. As has been said the current infrastructure is nearing full capacity. In the 6 years I've been on track the amount of time we get to do any basic maintenance has got less, mid week night shifts used to be 4 hours of actual on track time, now if we get 2 hours its a long shift. Same with weekends and xmas blocks, we're just not getting the full amount of time required to get the big jobs done. Risk of overruns has put jobs back/on hold, recently had 2 weekends cancelled during the final planning as it couldn't be guaranteed to be handed back on time. I'm working this xmas on a blockade to change some time expired assemblies over 5 shifts (3 night, 2 day), the plan has the 5th shift just as a contignency and all works completed by the middle of shift 4 or earlier. Had they not planned it this way it would not have been allowed to go ahead. And all because they cannot hand back late at any cost.
 

fredf

Member
Location
SW Co Durham
The land they pinched of me to alter the road..They paid more for the fencing.

That is the some with me I was sat on the fence a few years after the road was built and looked up and down the road and thought the fence is worth more than the land the road is on. D.C.C. has a bad name in this area.

Tom.
 

mf298

Member
Taking some of your points, and I appreciate we are in a very similar line of business.
1) Existing network is pretty much full. we need to do something.
However, in the UK my opinion is were not bad at 125mph track. I see no need to go any faster as the technical requirements, along with the maintenence requirements spiral. Unnecessary expense IMO.

2) Your last point I cannot agree more. It is nothing short of absoloutely disgraceful how the rail industry wastes money through pathetically poor planning of jobs. I know a machien driver who drives MEWPS at night. He rarely works a full shift and often gets to work to be told they have over booked (drivers and machines) and he can go straight home (with his 12 hours pay of course)
and... machines sent to site knowing they will not work due to other issues but as long as their digger is on site they get paid. But it costs the machine, the driver, the fitter cover, the cost of the attachments.
Shamefull.
so much waste here it is almost unbelievable, along with the "invisible" guys who get paid to work on projects!
 

kiwi pom

Member
Location
canterbury NZ
Mainly because the cost of the improvements to the overheads alone would be prohibitive. Only the new stuff that has been put up between Paddington and Cardiff would be suitable for the speed, every other line would need to be completely replaced. Not sure on the track, as I do the overheads, but would suspect that again would need a major redesign and reinstall to comply with the higher speed, let alone some of the curves. Then you'd have the public interface to improve, so all level crossings, foot paths etc closed and either bridged or diverted, increased security fencing etc.

To get what they're wanting in terms of speed and time gains the cheapest option is to build new. As has been said the current infrastructure is nearing full capacity. In the 6 years I've been on track the amount of time we get to do any basic maintenance has got less, mid week night shifts used to be 4 hours of actual on track time, now if we get 2 hours its a long shift. Same with weekends and xmas blocks, we're just not getting the full amount of time required to get the big jobs done. Risk of overruns has put jobs back/on hold, recently had 2 weekends cancelled during the final planning as it couldn't be guaranteed to be handed back on time. I'm working this xmas on a blockade to change some time expired assemblies over 5 shifts (3 night, 2 day), the plan has the 5th shift just as a contignency and all works completed by the middle of shift 4 or earlier. Had they not planned it this way it would not have been allowed to go ahead. And all because they cannot hand back late at any cost.

A profitable 5 shifts for you I'd imagine(y):D
 

Bloders

Member
Location
Ruabon
Mainly because the cost of the improvements to the overheads alone would be prohibitive. Only the new stuff that has been put up between Paddington and Cardiff would be suitable for the speed, every other line would need to be completely replaced. Not sure on the track, as I do the overheads, but would suspect that again would need a major redesign and reinstall to comply with the higher speed, let alone some of the curves. Then you'd have the public interface to improve, so all level crossings, foot paths etc closed and either bridged or diverted, increased security fencing etc.

To get what they're wanting in terms of speed and time gains the cheapest option is to build new. As has been said the current infrastructure is nearing full capacity. In the 6 years I've been on track the amount of time we get to do any basic maintenance has got less, mid week night shifts used to be 4 hours of actual on track time, now if we get 2 hours its a long shift. Same with weekends and xmas blocks, we're just not getting the full amount of time required to get the big jobs done. Risk of overruns has put jobs back/on hold, recently had 2 weekends cancelled during the final planning as it couldn't be guaranteed to be handed back on time. I'm working this xmas on a blockade to change some time expired assemblies over 5 shifts (3 night, 2 day), the plan has the 5th shift just as a contignency and all works completed by the middle of shift 4 or earlier. Had they not planned it this way it would not have been allowed to go ahead. And all because they cannot hand back late at any cost.

There was quite a good article in the latest (I think) Rail Engineer regarding the cost of installing Overhead Line, and how it is now more expensive AND slower than when the East Coast Main Line was done years ago. I thought it highlighted the point exactly. Whilst many things in life have progressed, infratsructure railway projects dont seem to have done so. We have better machines to do the work yet they are slower and more expensive than ever. Whilst I fully accept your point @ste about access times, this sould not affect new projects - HS2 is more expensive per kilometre than building railways before it.
Im not sure I blame "the consultants" either as they are doing a very specialist job, employing them directly is no really viable.
 

ste

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Derbyshire
There was quite a good article in the latest (I think) Rail Engineer regarding the cost of installing Overhead Line, and how it is now more expensive AND slower than when the East Coast Main Line was done years ago. I thought it highlighted the point exactly. Whilst many things in life have progressed, infratsructure railway projects dont seem to have done so. We have better machines to do the work yet they are slower and more expensive than ever. Whilst I fully accept your point @ste about access times, this sould not affect new projects - HS2 is more expensive per kilometre than building railways before it.
Im not sure I blame "the consultants" either as they are doing a very specialist job, employing them directly is no really viable.

But that's not comparing like for like. ECML was done with the much cheaper headspan method (wires strung between masts holding the running wires up), these need smaller foundations and less steel work, they're very rarely used now in a new build due to the downsides of increased maintenance, and risk of all lines being affected by a dewirement. Added to this it was done in an era of less stringent H&S, most of the work was done with the trains running, either off the top of wiring trains or by back hanging the headspan wires and pulling them across the track and getting them up in the gap between trains.

The required new design requires bigger foundations, and the H&S *ollocks that we have now very limit what we can do and when we can do it. At the very least 2 out of 4 lines have to be closed fro a lot of the work, most of the big stuff require all lines closed.

I'm not saying that back then was better in regard to working conditions etc, but we have gone to the total opposite extreme now. A lot of skill it leaving the industry again due to the uncertain future of investment, this then means it takes longer to do the work as your training new people up and the engineers are learning as they go rather that old hands seeing the issues before they arrise. Land prices have also played a big part in the overall costs, yes this thread is about the lack of real price that they are paying, but its still greater than anytime in the past. Plus some of it is also the stupid supply chain rules that inflate the cost of things by over 200% just because it has NWR approval.
 

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