Identify noise from MF 390 engine? I need help!

[Dry Rot]

Both myself and my local dealers need help identifying a strong grating/rumbling from the engine of my 1992 MF 390 with about 6,000 hours. Can anyone help? I posted this before but the plot deepens! The tractor has been intermittently making low rumbling engine noises like metal on metal which no one can identify. And now the sounds have stopped!

Here is the progress so far. Maybe someone can recognise the problem?

All the hydraulic oil and filters were replaced as routine. No metal was found in the oil which was tested with a magnet. The filters have either replaced or meticulously cleaned.

A mechanic from the local dealers suggested the water pump was bad. That diagnosis was confirm by a small leakage of water from the pump. The water pump has now been replaced. The rumble was still here.

Mechanic advised getting the tractor to the dealers as soon as possible before something goes 'bang'. The driver of the transporter lorry (an experienced tractor driver) confirmed that he could hear the rumble, also thought that the new water pump seemed to have minor lateral play (i.e. to and fro on the shaft). The mechanics agree with that and also think the water pump could be faulty, so it is being replaced now. There are no bad noises with the fan belt removed and the engine running, nor whether hot or cold, high revs or low revs. But, when present, it is louder when lowering the revs. At higher revs, the engine seems to drown it out.

The tractor has been delivered to the dealers but the mechanics cannot reproduce the noise. This morning I tried the tractor myself and it sounded sweet, no rumbling, no unwanted/unusual engine noise. It has simply gone away. Fortunately, the noise is quite clear on the videos, although intermittent!

Has anyone experienced anything like this before?

 

[Henarar]

Both myself and my local dealers need help identifying a strong grating/rumbling from the engine of my 1992 MF 390 with about 6,000 hours. Can anyone help? I posted this before but the plot deepens! The tractor has been intermittently making low rumbling engine noises like metal on metal which no one can identify. And now the sounds have stopped!

Here is the progress so far. Maybe someone can recognise the problem?

All the hydraulic oil and filters were replaced as routine. No metal was found in the oil which was tested with a magnet. The filters have either replaced or meticulously cleaned.

A mechanic from the local dealers suggested the water pump was bad. That diagnosis was confirm by a small leakage of water from the pump. The water pump has now been replaced. The rumble was still here.

Mechanic advised getting the tractor to the dealers as soon as possible before something goes 'bang'. The driver of the transporter lorry (an experienced tractor driver) confirmed that he could hear the rumble, also thought that the new water pump seemed to have minor lateral play (i.e. to and fro on the shaft). The mechanics agree with that and also think the water pump could be faulty, so it is being replaced now. There are no bad noises with the fan belt removed and the engine running, nor whether hot or cold, high revs or low revs. But, when present, it is louder when lowering the revs. At higher revs, the engine seems to drown it out.

The tractor has been delivered to the dealers but the mechanics cannot reproduce the noise. This morning I tried the tractor myself and it sounded sweet, no rumbling, no unwanted/unusual engine noise. It has simply gone away. Fortunately, the noise is quite clear on the videos, although intermittent!

Has anyone experienced anything like this before?

does it go/change with your foot on the clutch ?

 

[e5c0rt.mk1]

If the noise goes away with the fan belt off, surely it has to be something that is being driven off the belt. Alternator etc, could even be a problem with the crank pulley.

 

[ford 7810]

Our ford 5000 when on the front end loader feeding cows every day,started knocking but we carried on using it after 2or 3 weeks it stopped knocking then started again in a week or two and carried on all winter. when we looked into it in the spring, a little end Bush had come loose and was turning, and it would turn and block the oil hole up and turn and unblock the hole and so on

 

[Dry Rot]

does it go/change with your foot on the clutch ?

No change.

 

[Dry Rot]

If the noise goes away with the fan belt off, surely it has to be something that is being driven off the belt. Alternator etc, could even be a problem with the crank pulley.

My bad English. Fan belt on or off makes no difference. I entirely agree your reasoning but we now have full time MF mechanics on the job and the rumble was definitely there when the tractor went on the lorry. The crunch may come when the NEW water pump is replaced, but if that is bad, why is it not grumbling now? Intermittent problems are the worst!

 

[MF CI]

Engine balancer. It's in the sump and they are known to fail. I would have thought any Massey mechanic worth his salt would know that.

 

[Neil MP]

In my opinion, that noise is similar to the power steering pump loading up?

 

[Dry Rot]

Engine balancer. It's in the sump and they are known to fail. I would have thought any Massey mechanic worth his salt would know that.

Apparently, it is a different noise. And why has it completely disappeared now? Doesn't a bad balancer end with a "slap"? I'd love you to be right and hope you are!

 

[Dry Rot]

In my opinion, that noise is similar to the power steering pump loading up?

Most of the time the tractor was sitting in the shed going nowhere but it has also been tried outside, fast, slow, hot, cool, the lot. I have told them to replace the NEW water pump with another in case that one is a lemon.

 

[MF CI]

Apparently, it is a different noise. And why has it completely disappeared now? Doesn't a bad balancer end with a "slap"? I'd love you to be right and hope you are!

The introduction of the 6 hole balancer was a disaster for perkins, changed loads on 600 series MFs. The balancer was certainly better by the time the 300 series came out, but still get them with the gear teeth on the two weights showing pitting and wear, sometimes break off too. Another problem can be the bushes and roller bearings on the shafts.
The whole unit is available from the likes of Sparex and Vapormatic so that tells you some thing.

 

[RushesToo]

It is difficult to hear clearly but I think the rumble is a shaft touching something as it turns.

 

[MrNoo]

Engine balancer. It's in the sump and they are known to fail. I would have thought any Massey mechanic worth his salt would know that.

I would say the same thing, esp with it quietening down at higher revs. A lot have a rubber interface between the centre and outer portion and this degrades over time. Have seen it on other engines but am not familiar with the engine in question.

 

[MF CI]

I would say the same thing, esp with it quietening down at higher revs. A lot have a rubber interface between the centre and outer portion and this degrades over time. Have seen it on other engines but am not familiar with the engine in question.

That would be a crankshaft mounted damper as fitted to 6 cyl perkins engines. This 4 cyl engine has a balancer inside the sump, basically two weights driven by the crank through a series of gears.

 

[Dry Rot]

The introduction of the 6 hole balancer was a disaster for perkins, changed loads on 600 series MFs. The balancer was certainly better by the time the 300 series came out, but still get them with the gear teeth on the two weights showing pitting and wear, sometimes break off too. Another problem can be the bushes and roller bearings on the shafts.
The whole unit is available from the likes of Sparex and Vapormatic so that tells you some thing.

I have changed the oil and dangled a reasonably powerful magnet in the waste oil. Just a few very tiny pieces of steel about 1/4 the size of a pin head. Would you not be seeing more metal if there is a balancer loose in there? Also, could a water pump moving slightly, back and fore, produce that sound? I know nothing about these things, just keep hearing the cash register!

 

[RushesToo]

I have changed the oil and dangled a reasonably powerful magnet in the waste oil. Just a few very tiny pieces of steel about 1/4 the size of a pin head. Would you not be seeing more metal if there is a balancer loose in there? Also, could a water pump moving slightly, back and fore, produce that sound? I know nothing about these things, just keep hearing the cash register!

It wouldn't suit your nature, but maybe keep using it until the noise turns into a problem might be cheaper?
I would still ask here, because someone will recognise the noise, but just balance the cost of finding it verses the cost of letting it go wrong.
I am ashamed to suggest this, but thought I should offer an alternative than expensive mechanics preventative bills even if it is only expensive mechanic repair bills.

 

[Bury the Trash]

as said above power steering pump maybe.

Most of the time the tractor was sitting in the shed going nowhere but it has also been tried outside, fast, slow, hot, cool, the lot. I have told them to replace the NEW water pump with another in case that one is a lemon.

pump runs even when not steering .


but im no massey person.

 

[MF CI]

I have changed the oil and dangled a reasonably powerful magnet in the waste oil. Just a few very tiny pieces of steel about 1/4 the size of a pin head. Would you not be seeing more metal if there is a balancer loose in there? Also, could a water pump moving slightly, back and fore, produce that sound? I know nothing about these things, just keep hearing the cash register!

I understand it's difficult when the noise comes and goes, but by a process of elimination rule things out.
Noise when driving or stationary
When stationary does pressing clutch make a difference
Take the fan belt off, eliminate water pump and alternator
Daft things like is the heater blower working
A hydraulic hose or pipe touching the cab
Other mechanical vibrations

If after all that you've found nothing, other than the tiny metal bits in the oil then dropping the sump and checking the balancer isn't a big job.

 

[two-cylinder]

That would be a crankshaft mounted damper as fitted to 6 cyl perkins engines. This 4 cyl engine has a balancer inside the sump, basically two weights driven by the crank through a series of gears.

Our 690 rumbled from new, during warranty had balancer replaced.

 

[ACEngineering]

Apparently, it is a different noise. And why has it completely disappeared now? Doesn't a bad balancer end with a "slap"? I'd love you to be right and hope you are!

I have seen these perkins snap the crank shafts between no 1 main bearing and no1 big end, they still run but sound bad.