If you tell lies you'll get caught out eventually

[som farmer]

who carries the can for stuff sold, but p/p withdrawn?

 

[M-J-G]

There was an incident within the Simmental Society a few years age when some one was giving false information on health status which is even worse .

If it's the same cases that I'm thinking of, it was a breakdown in communication between the society, the health scheme, and the two breeders involved.
The breeders status had dropped but wasn't picked up on by the society, I'm not saying the breeders were innocent, but at least the society and staff weren't cashing in on it.
It all gets verified now by the society, direct from the health scheme provider.

If it is the same case(s), I'm not sure it's comparable to the likes of falsifying dates, then suggesting random cows are the dam of fraudulently registered calves, meanwhile the society seems to promote semen sales and takes registrations and allows ET work to happen using these genetics, and then suggest that they weren't aware of all the facts.
As an outsider who has nothing to do with the Lim breed had a good idea of what was going on.
If it weren't for the horse meat scandal, the mother of the bull in question might never have been verified.

 

[AGN76]

If it's the same cases that I'm thinking of, it was a breakdown in communication between the society, the health scheme, and the two breeders involved.
The breeders status had dropped but wasn't picked up on by the society, I'm not saying the breeders were innocent, but at least the society and staff weren't cashing in on it.
It all gets verified now by the society, direct from the health scheme provider.

If it is the same case(s), I'm not sure it's comparable to the likes of falsifying dates, then suggesting random cows are the dam of fraudulently registered calves, meanwhile the society seems to promote semen sales and takes registrations and allows ET work to happen using these genetics, and then suggest that they weren't aware of all the facts.
As an outsider who has nothing to do with the Lim breed had a good idea of what was going on.
If it weren't for the horse meat scandal, the mother of the bull in question might never have been verified.

The dam is a crossbred, is that correct?

 

[Andrew1983]

So Jägerbomb was registered to a different cow than he was actually born too? I can understand how a sire could be mixed up, if I swap bulls over half way through working season there’s a couple weeks in middle of calving where calves could be by either bull but a Dam?! A twin set onto a cow and then registered to the foster mum? Only way that I can see it being a genuine mistake.... otherwise what would they have to gain by swapping about dams?

 

[Northeastfarmer]

So Jägerbomb was registered to a different cow than he was actually born too? I can understand how a sire could be mixed up, if I swap bulls over half way through working season there’s a couple weeks in middle of calving where calves could be by either bull but a Dam?! A twin set onto a cow and then registered to the foster mum? Only way that I can see it being a genuine mistake.... otherwise what would they have to gain by swapping about dams?

I think if you’re breeding pedigree bulls you wouldn’t be swapping bulls halfway and guessing who sired what.....
Most pedigree bulls will be by AI so can’t be a cock up

 

[juke]

I think if you’re breeding pedigree bulls you wouldn’t be swapping bulls halfway and guessing who sired what.....
Most pedigree bulls will be by AI so can’t be a cock up

We swap bulls around mid season where possible .. also run a bull with cows a couple weeks after ai

Once the calf is born/ registered a dna sample bag comes ... That sample becomes active when u either want to sell a bull or a heifer has her first calf .. or that's how the charolais society runs . They also inspect every 50 th calf born in the society .

 

[neilo]

The dam is a crossbred, is that correct?

If it’s the case a Limousin breeder was telling me about a couple of weeks ago, then it was supposed to have some BB blood in it.
He’d used a son of said bull quite heavily, to then be notified of the discrepancy by BCMS, making his ‘pedigree’ calves only as valuable as any other beef cross. He wasn’t happy, not least with the way the society were, or rather weren’t, handling it.

Apparently some big money is backing a court case against the guy that made the ‘mistake’, so maybe we shouldn’t discuss it in too much detail on here?

It’s hardly the first time it’s happened in pedigree circles though.....

 

[Raider112]

So Jägerbomb was registered to a different cow than he was actually born too? I can understand how a sire could be mixed up, if I swap bulls over half way through working season there’s a couple weeks in middle of calving where calves could be by either bull but a Dam?! A twin set onto a cow and then registered to the foster mum? Only way that I can see it being a genuine mistake.... otherwise what would they have to gain by swapping about dams?

Possibly the calves mixed up at birth?

 

[M-J-G]

Possibly the calves mixed up at birth?

One would hope that's all it was.

 

[Happy]

The dam is a crossbred, is that correct?

Heard that story(calves being born with white markings) a good few months before the Limousin cattle society investigated. Over a year now since they announced that a second pedigree cow had been identified as the correct dam so pretty much a case of move along now folks, nothing to see here was the impression given out.

Seems very much as though bcms have been the drivers here rather than the Limousin society with these latest developments

 

[M-J-G]

Heard that story(calves being born with white markings) a good few months before the Limousin cattle society investigated over a year ago now and said a second pedigree cow had been identified as the correct dam so pretty much move along folks, nothing to see here.

Seems very much as though bcms have been the drivers here rather than Limousin society

You can't go investigating too heavily FFS, don't you know how many registrations it takes to pay the salaries in that office

Besides, if things were too strict, the juniors at Carlisle might actually start getting smaller that the seniors.

 

[Devil's advocate]

Its all a bit foreign to me.

But if the bull calves are good, what is the problem for commercial use ie bulling sucler cows or dairy cows?

I do agree though it is all a bit sordid.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

Its all a bit foreign to me.

But if the bull calves are good, what is the problem for commercial use ie bulling sucler cows or dairy cows?

I do agree though it is all a bit sordid.

It’s fraud?

 

[Purli R]

No,its a mistake!

 

[CharcoalWally]

Its all a bit foreign to me.

But if the bull calves are good, what is the problem for commercial use ie bulling sucler cows or dairy cows?

I do agree though it is all a bit sordid.

There's no problem as long as you categorically state to the buyer that the bull is off a crossbred cow and everyone is completely in the picture .

However, if I as a breeder sell a bull that has a stated pedigree, then it's kind of expected by everyone involved that the bull has to be who I'm claiming he is, ie, off the correct bull and cow as stated.

 

[Nithsdale]

Its all a bit foreign to me.

But if the bull calves are good, what is the problem for commercial use ie bulling sucler cows or dairy cows?

I do agree though it is all a bit sordid.

It's like the old boy down the road with a pristine Ferrari in the garage you've never seen. You hear it's up for sale so down you go to buy it.

Only to find it's actually a Lada with a fezza badge drawn on the bonnet and painted Italian red....




I mean, it's still a car. And he's looked after it.... but it isn't what it's supposed to be.



Would you still pay Ferrari money?

 

[Cowgirl]

It's like the old boy down the road with a pristine Ferrari in the garage you've never seen. You hear it's up for sale so down you go to buy it.

Only to find it's actually a Lada with a fezza badge drawn on the bonnet and painted Italian red....




I mean, it's still a car. And he's looked after it.... but it isn't what it's supposed to be.



Would you still pay Ferrari money?

Thats exactly the problem - money! Shock, horror, someone has been found out, yet this has probably been going on for years, before DNA parentage testing, either by accident or design, in all our “pedigree” breeds. When it has been discussed on here before, I remember people saying “Well why does it matter? Breeds are a Victorian invention, cattle were all a mixture anyway before the 1800s etc etc” The fact that the modern Hereford is now a mixture of Simmental, Angus, Limousin, Red Poll, Chianina and god knows what else, despite having a “closed herd book”, seems not to matter at all, or that most of our native breeds have had continental infusion.
If it were not for the action of BCMS I suspect it would have been swept under the carpet and no one would care.

 

[onthehoof]

Surely all the Polled black limmos will have some Angus in their DNA so how does that work? Are they allowed a certain %

 

[sticky]

If it’s the case a Limousin breeder was telling me about a couple of weeks ago, then it was supposed to have some BB blood in it.

@Surgery knows about this type of breeding, but not Limousin.

 

[M-J-G]

Surely all the Polled black limmos will have some Angus in their DNA so how does that work? Are they allowed a certain %

Most breed Societies in the UK will allow 3 or so percent of another breed within it's female population.

From those that I have dealt with, those on the continent will generally allow up to 12.5%. Not certain of the US, but in the case of stabiliser anything from hybrids were ironically classed as a stabiliser.

Almost all of the pedigree Holstein herds in the country are just bred up from BF, Ayrshire and Shorthorn bases.

Very few breeds are pure, as they all came from crossing at one point in the past.