If you tell lies you'll get caught out eventually

[Davy_g]

That's what our society uses
1 natural birth
2 slight assistance
3 mechanical assistance ie calving bar
4 non surgical vet assistance
5 surgical vet assistance

Interesting the Lims hitting hard on cows that were sectioned but calves never registered against the cow as being sectioned - call me a synic but they seem to have a certain focus at present.
I wonder do our breeders acknowledge a section when registering. I do from the list above, but it doesnt show anywhere on the public side of the database against the cow or the calf. Same as birth weights, i still estimate a calfs weight. The Blue society provice a measuring tape to guestimate weight - wonder should we standardise calf weights some way too?

 

[d williams]

Breeding from a beast which has been born by C section is the very opposite of hybrid vigour. If a bull, probably too big or the dam has a narrower pelvis which he will pass onto his heifer offspring. If a heifer she is more likely to have a narrow pelvis too. I would never buy it unless falsified.
Surely you can remember what cows had a section? They had 7 in 500 births going by the ear tags and they were only the ones they did not declare. I can only remember 3 sections in 1200+ calvings, have a record of calving dates and selling weights for every cow and just a commercial herd.
In a pedigree herd you are paying extra because of inherited traits and characteristics and the least I would expect is that the dob and parentage is correct. Any deviation from that is simply fraud.

Does pelvic scores come into ease of calf ing bull scores ??
I have family who buy in heifers to calve who have started pelvic scores and are surprised at how many are not fit for breeding

 

[___\0/___]

That's what our society uses
1 natural birth
2 slight assistance
3 mechanical assistance ie calving bar
4 non surgical vet assistance
5 surgical vet assistance

If the vet gave it a jag to start it calving on its due date would it be a 2 or a 4?

 

[M-J-G]

Interesting the Lims hitting hard on cows that were sectioned but calves never registered against the cow as being sectioned - call me a synic but they seem to have a certain focus at present.
I wonder do our breeders acknowledge a section when registering. I do from the list above, but it doesnt show anywhere on the public side of the database against the cow or the calf. Same as birth weights, i still estimate a calfs weight. The Blue society provice a measuring tape to guestimate weight - wonder should we standardise calf weights some way too?

From what I gather it's just the BLCS hitting hard at certain individuals and not bothering about others that they maybe should should be.

Sims, BSH and Her provide a foot tape for birth weights, I was dubious about using it at first, but when I checked calves in the weigh crate it was pretty much on the money.

 

[muleman]

Interesting the Lims hitting hard on cows that were sectioned but calves never registered against the cow as being sectioned - call me a synic but they seem to have a certain focus at present.
I wonder do our breeders acknowledge a section when registering. I do from the list above, but it doesnt show anywhere on the public side of the database against the cow or the calf. Same as birth weights, i still estimate a calfs weight. The Blue society provice a measuring tape to guestimate weight - wonder should we standardise calf weights some way too?

A lot of lims now will be embryo transplants... makes a lot of figures redundant i would think.

 

[Henarar]

Interesting the Lims hitting hard on cows that were sectioned but calves never registered against the cow as being sectioned - call me a synic but they seem to have a certain focus at present.
I wonder do our breeders acknowledge a section when registering. I do from the list above, but it doesnt show anywhere on the public side of the database against the cow or the calf. Same as birth weights, i still estimate a calfs weight. The Blue society provice a measuring tape to guestimate weight - wonder should we standardise calf weights some way too?

no point in standardizing apart from in the same group, the tamps are good and saves taking the calf away from the cow to weigh.
We have the same calving ease chart and always put it down accurately but It don't show anywhere apart from part of the evb which is good.

A lot of lims now will be embryo transplants... makes a lot of figures redundant i would think.

Does anyone know how a c-sec from a recipient counts toward the EBV ?

 

[Whitepeak]

Interesting the Lims hitting hard on cows that were sectioned but calves never registered against the cow as being sectioned - call me a synic but they seem to have a certain focus at present.
I wonder do our breeders acknowledge a section when registering. I do from the list above, but it doesnt show anywhere on the public side of the database against the cow or the calf. Same as birth weights, i still estimate a calfs weight. The Blue society provice a measuring tape to guestimate weight - wonder should we standardise calf weights some way too?

I don't know how many breeders would do. I certainly do, and I also disclose that information to bull buyers. I would certainly be in favour of making that information more available and also standardise calf weights. Currently I guesstimate weights, thinking of putting a few over our scales this time to accurately record. However I can't do that with the majority that are born outside.

If the vet gave it a jag to start it calving on its due date would it be a 2 or a 4?

Never done that with any but I would put it down as a 4 as you've had a vet call out. I'm sure many wouldn't though.

 

[Ministryman]

I know this is a bit of topic but if an animal has a refused passport can it be butchered for personal consumption. Or is it a case of put down a perfectly good animal?

It can be kept and bred from. As I understand it, it can also be slaughtered for personal consumption, but that is only for the members of the business not other family members.

 

[capfits]

If the vet gave it a jag to start it calving on its due date would it be a 2 or a 4?

Or even better say a week before due date.......
Natural delivery....

 

[exmoorromney]

I don't know how many breeders would do. I certainly do, and I also disclose that information to bull buyers. I would certainly be in favour of making that information more available and also standardise calf weights. Currently I guesstimate weights, thinking of putting a few over our scales this time to accurately record. However I can't do that with the majority that are born outside.

Never done that with any but I would put it down as a 4 as you've had a vet call out. I'm sure many wouldn't though.

We castrate anything that has to be assisted at calving (hardly any) and never had to call a vet out, we are Angus though. I'd certainly never sell a bull that had to be C sectioned and the cow would be culled at the earliest opportunity!

 

[M-J-G]

no point in standardizing apart from in the same group, the tamps are good and saves taking the calf away from the cow to weigh.
We have the same calving ease chart and always put it down accurately but It don't show anywhere apart from part of the evb which is good.


Does anyone know how a c-sec from a recipient counts toward the EBV ?

I take it you don't realise how little of a calf's own birthing method contributes to it's EBVs, it's mainly based gestation length and birth weight, and even that isn't a huge contributer to that calf's own EBV.

 

[choochter]

I was under the impression that the Calving Value EBV comprised gestation length and calving ease.
And that the birth weight contributed to the Beef Value EBV. In Limousins anyway.

 

[M-J-G]

Does pelvic scores come into ease of calf ing bull scores ??
I have family who buy in heifers to calve who have started pelvic scores and are surprised at how many are not fit for breeding

Keep in mind that animals from lines with large pelvic area can prove difficult in direct calving themselves.
It can be creating an spiraling problem for further down the line.

 

[M-J-G]

I was under the impression that the Calving Value EBV comprised gestation length and calving ease.
And that the birth weight contributed to the Beef Value EBV. In Limousins anyway.

Birth weight data is used in calculations for calving ease, for the difference between a 30kg calf and 60kg calf to not be included in a calving ease score would be madness.
Birth weight and gestation are more heavily weighted because they have a definitive measurement, calving score is more variable and open to interpretation.

 

[Bill the Bass]

Breeding from a beast which has been born by C section is the very opposite of hybrid vigour. If a bull, probably too big or the dam has a narrower pelvis which he will pass onto his heifer offspring. If a heifer she is more likely to have a narrow pelvis too. I would never buy it unless falsified.
Surely you can remember what cows had a section? They had 7 in 500 births going by the ear tags and they were only the ones they did not declare. I can only remember 3 sections in 1200+ calvings, have a record of calving dates and selling weights for every cow and just a commercial herd.
In a pedigree herd you are paying extra because of inherited traits and characteristics and the least I would expect is that the dob and parentage is correct. Any deviation from that is simply fraud.

He bloody well should remember, or his medicine book is a work of fiction too, which is a whole new kettle of fish.

I don’t know, we have just finished calving pedigree heifers here (lim and Charolais) not one vet assist in the lim and only one in the Charolais. One assist from us with lims for a calf coming backwards. Only two calves have weighed over 40kgs. But it will be doubtful if any of these cattle would get a second glance at a society sale. It seems the job is so far gone that you almost need to be half on the fiddle to get a decent bull to the sales

 

[Old Tup]

Think it through…
Bull Sale…
Announce in the ring at Auction this Bull at calving required a C Section …..
That would restrict the bidders to those that believe that no calf is worth having unless you had to give it a dam good pull to get it out..
Unfortunately there are still a good few around ………both in Pedigree and Commercial herds.
Non independently collected Data that is supplied by those who stand to benefit from the short term gain must be viewed with the caution that it deserves.

 

[Happy]

I take it you don't realise how little of a calf's own birthing method contributes to it's EBVs, it's mainly based gestation length and birth weight, and even that isn't a huge contributer to that calf's own EBV.

I’m a bit confused about animals own input into EBV’s as well.
Bought a bull in October 2020 sale and happened to look him up on Sim database a few weeks ago. Saw that he had one registered progeny so looked it up.

Has 200/400/600 day weights and all the rest recorded already the latter 2 weights a good 20kg more that my bull has.
This calf was only born in May this year so hasn’t reached any of these milestones yet so is it all based on parentage/bloodlines rather than anything from the actual animal themselves?

Other thing that has me puzzled is it’s tag number is UKherdnumber/DEAD92 so presumably is no longer alive but must have been long enough to be worth registering with society.

Calving ease is a -6 whereas my bull’s a -1. Would that be real figure based on its actual birth?

I know the clue will be in the estimated bit of EBV but would like to understand a bit more on how it’s all worked out.

The one thing I do know is that the 23 autumn calves we’ve had from him so far are all alive and well. Calved 2 of them.

 

[M-J-G]

He bloody well should remember, or his medicine book is a work of fiction too, which is a whole new kettle of fish.

I don’t know, we have just finished calving pedigree heifers here (lim and Charolais) not one vet assist in the lim and only one in the Charolais. One assist from us with lims for a calf coming backwards. Only two calves have weighed over 40kgs. But it will be doubtful if any of these cattle would get a second glance at a society sale. It seems the job is so far gone that you almost need to be half on the fiddle to get a decent bull to the sales

Some wouldn't have your calves being born until May.

 

[Agrivator]

It can be kept and bred from. As I understand it, it can also be slaughtered for personal consumption, but that is only for the members of the business not other family members.

And when other family members come round for dinner, those involved in the business can have a sirloin steak, but other family members are only allowed a nut roast.

And they must be cooked in separate pans.

 

[Hilly]

And when other family members come round for dinner, those involved in the business can have a sirloin steak, but other family members are only allowed a nut roast.

And they must be cooked in separate pans.

Ridiculous rules .